Royals Grienke to BREWERS - Page 5

kstater · 12-19-2010, 07:02 AM

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5935586

Former Cy Young Award winner Zack Greinke has been traded to the Milwaukee Brewers, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney on Sunday morning.
In the deal, the Brewers would reportedly send the Royals outfielder Lorenzo Cain, shortstop Alcides Escobar and prospect pitchers Jake Odorizzi and Jeremy Jeffress for Greinke, 10-14 with a 4.17 ERA in 2010 with the Royals after winning the 2009 Cy Young.
The Brewers were expected to receive another major leaguer in the deal. Jim Breem of the blog "Bernie's Crew" reported that player to be shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt.

Consistent1 · 12-19-2010, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Bad Guy

In the Nats deal, Washington would have given up Drew Storen and Danny Espinoza. I know nothing of Espinoza, but Storen is the goods.

The Nats seem to wanting to put a decent team together. As much as I enjoy watching Werth, that seems to be a terrible deal for them. But,if they could have gotten Zack and get Strasburg healthy at some point, that would have been a competitive as hell top of the rotation. It is interesting to see a team like that try to make some moves.

**Bowser** · 12-19-2010, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Wiz

I read that we got the Brewers top two pitching prospects and top two up the middle prospects. Plus we got rid of Betancourt. What's not to like?

We just traded our Cy Young award winner for untested prospects. If they pan out, it's all good, but how many times have you seen EVERY prospect turn out on the major league level? As of right now, it looks like we got hosed, and Moore is the laughing stock of MLB. Getting rid of Betancourt is a plus, however.....

eazyb81 · 12-19-2010, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

Who cares what Escobar was 12 months ago? All prospects are great and have tremendous upside until they're exposed. The most disconcerting thing is his defensive regression, with his horrendous OBP a close second.

We have no choice but to give it the benefit of the doubt, but, on paper, this is a terrible trade for Greinke.

Now we have to be hopeful.

You don't completely discount a player's track record because of one BABIP-distorted rookie year. And I don't see the defensive regression you're talking about - his 4.7 UZR/150 was 7th best at the position this past year. It says a lot about his upside if that is considered a disappointment.

I think the value of premium shortstop defense with offensive upside is being underrated on here. Just a normalized BABIP would make a 2 WAR player last year, and he has 5+ WAR potential at the most valuable position in the sport.

**Bowser** · 12-19-2010, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tk13

Probably didn't want to go to a big city like that.

And another perrenial(sp?) loser, even if he and Strasburg would have made a ridiculous 1-2 punch in their lineup.

**cabletech94** · 12-19-2010, 10:28 AM

at first i thought this thread was a joke.
then i read some more.
wish we'd gotten a catcher (may still).

at least we got rid of "the worst SS in the ML's".

addition by subtraction, i guess.
i'll miss zach, but he's a headcase.

**Bowser** · 12-19-2010, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eazyb81

I think the value of premium shortstop defense with offensive upside is being underrated on here. Just a normalized BABIP would make a 2 WAR player last year, and he has 5+ WAR potential at the most valuable position in the sport.

Good point, but..... it just has the feel they we got fleeced. Only time will tell, I guess.

siberian khatru · 12-19-2010, 10:31 AM

My .02 (if it's worth even that):

* That's not the trade I would've made, but when I saw the rumors last night they had more than a ring of legitimacy. Escobar and Cain are DM's kind of players.

Having said that, I don't think this is the Beltran trade all over again. None of those players were anything close to the projected quality of Escobar and Odorizzi. And Cain, IMO, is not Jarrod Dyson or Joey Gathright or Blanco. Yes, that's a pretty low bar to clear, but still ...

Yes, there are "If's" to overcome. But I don't think it's a big "IF" to imagine Escobar's defense returning to its stellar minor league reputation (how do you suddenly and forever lose your D at that age ... must've just been a really rough year for him all around). And he had a very low BABIP. He should rebound with the bat. He could definitely hit .275-.285 with Gold Glove level D and good speed (albeit with a mediocre OBP and low SLG). So he's no TPJ.

Cain, well, DM just loves his CFs like this. He'd probably sign Omar Moreno if he could. I think Cain will be a solid MLB player. I don't know if that's enough. But I don't think he's a bum like Blanco or a bust like Gathright.

So DM got what he wanted -- two everyday, up-the-middle players. I think they are better than what we have. But again, are they good enough?

* So much of the emotions swirling around this involve the known and the unknown. Everyone says we should have gotten more for Greinke, but COULD we have? Right now, we don't know that. Most of the speculation involved what the Royals wanted to get, not what they were offered.

Also, we have ML numbers for Cain and Escobar, and they are underwhelming. If we had gotten a MiL uber-prospect, we could bask in the glow of projecting the unknown -- just as we did with Alex Gordon a few years ago.

As Deez said, "All prospects are great and have tremendous upside until they're exposed." But are you going to discard former prospects based on just one season in the majors? Or are you always going to want the unexposed prize because the projection is infinite and untarnished?

I think it's WAY too early to write off Cain and Escobar because of one year, and dangerous to focus on that still-wrapped present sitting under the neighbor's tree. Yeah, there are a bunch of highly-touted prospects I'd rather have, but I don't know if they were available. If they'd EVER be available, even if DM folded his tent on Zack and waited and waited.

He SHOULD have gotten more for Zack. But COULD he have?

Maybe we'll find out in the coming days and weeks. If it turns out that DM declined a better deal because it didn't involve two up-the-middle guys, then I'll be inclined to rip him.

But right now, I'm just trying to deal with the reality and the knowns. And what I KNOW about this deal doesn't make me want to break furniture. I don't think the players involved are bad or make no sense for the Royals. Maybe that's rationalization, but so be it. I also don't think it's fair to judge it against what we don't know.

tk13 · 12-19-2010, 10:32 AM

I don't know that I'm super excited about who we got. I'm more excited about the pitchers than the position players. But honestly I think it turned out better than I thought it would. I was half expecting to get ripped off by the Yankees stable of usually overrated prospects. I never expected a Ryan Braun type trade... I think people were aiming in the wrong direction. DM was clearly going for a Teixeira type trade... four young players we control for a long time, and that's exactly what we did.

This does have the potential to bust just like the Beltran trade though, no doubt. Although in that trade I liked the position players more than the pitcher. I like Odorizzi much better than Mike Wood. And at least we got a SS who hasn't already proven he can't hit, I guess. The Brewers are definitely going for it all next year before Fielder leaves.

Kidd Lex · 12-19-2010, 10:33 AM

Lets also not forget that Greinke demanded a trade, has some serious anxiety issues, had a lackluster year last year, and admitted he had trouble finding motivation. I love the trade especially if the PTBNL is Cheech. The kid has a live arm and as long as he is on the 40 man roster, he cannot be suspended for weed.

The Royals were not going to compete this year, and this trade goes a long way towards starting the youth movement in the pros, that will be complimented the next 3-4 years by what Baseball America considers the best minor league system they have ever rated.

GMDM is doing a hell of a job considering Allard Baird left our minors decimated. Please look at the big picture before giving up on our squad. 2011 will be a rough year, but their is light at the end of the tunnel.

**DeezNutz** · 12-19-2010, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eazyb81

You don't completely discount a player's track record because of one BABIP-distorted rookie year. And I don't see the defensive regression you're talking about - his 4.7 UZR/150 was 7th best at the position this past year. It says a lot about his upside if that is considered a disappointment.

I think the value of premium shortstop defense with offensive upside is being underrated on here. Just a normalized BABIP would make a 2 WAR player last year, and he has 5+ WAR potential at the most valuable position in the sport.

Rtot -3 in '10.

chiefsnorth · 12-19-2010, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowser

We just traded our Cy Young award winner for untested prospects. If they pan out, it's all good, but how many times have you seen EVERY prospect turn out on the major league level? As of right now, it looks like we got hosed, and Moore is the laughing stock of MLB. Getting rid of Betancourt is a plus, however.....

What do they do then, let him walk?

Royals fans have been burned too much in the past to be objective. You could add five more players to this and they still wouldn't be happy. I get that. But this deal includes two likely everyday starters this year who are high level prospects, and it also includes a 20 year old who was Milkwaukee's best pitcher in the system, plus one of their draftees who would carry similar value to Jeffress.

While the Royalfan shit-colored glasses are always in effect and you can debate whether these four players are decent return for two years of an ace pitcher, there IS a lot of talent coming over to KC in this deal. No question there. In the end everyone will believe whatever they want to believe

tk13 · 12-19-2010, 10:36 AM

Ken Rosenthal says the PTNBL is a "pretty good player," according to a source.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/b...over-prospects

The rest is basically how Doug Melvin has gambled his job on this trade.

Consistent1 · 12-19-2010, 10:37 AM

Greinke still puzzles me. I like his talent and have loved watching him pitch when I've gotten the chance. I just don't see how he could even like this deal. Milwaukee isn't a bad team, but I would be wanting to go to a team that almost guarantees me an outstanding shot at 20 wins a year for at least the next several years, playoff runs, etc. I don't know if Milwaukee is the place for that. Who knows? Sucks for the Royals fans as much as anything. The team itself still couldn't win consistently with him in KC.

**Gonzo** · 12-19-2010, 10:39 AM

Well, this ****ing sucks. Nice job Moore, you piece of shit.
Posted via Mobile Device

tk13 · 12-19-2010, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The God Hypothesis

Lets also not forget that Greinke demanded a trade, has some serious anxiety issues, had a lackluster year last year, and admitted he had trouble finding motivation. I love the trade especially if the PTBNL is Cheech. The kid has a live arm and as long as he is on the 40 man roster, he cannot be suspended for weed.

The Royals were not going to compete this year, and this trade goes a long way towards starting the youth movement in the pros, that will be complimented the next 3-4 years by what Baseball America considers the best minor league system they have ever rated.

GMDM is doing a hell of a job considering Allard Baird left our minors decimated. Please look at the big picture before giving up on our squad. 2011 will be a rough year, but their is light at the end of the tunnel.

I said it in another thread... the thing is all of us Royal fans know he's going to go somewhere and probably get his head on straight and light it up. But there are fans of other teams that are going to say the Brewers gutted their farm system for a guy is a headcase who had a league-average year last year. Of course we're going to sit here and say Escobar had a bad year too... I guess that's how it goes. But there are people who think Greinke's Cy Young year was a fluke. We had one of them posting in the other thread.

12-19-2010, 07:02 AM
kstater Custom User Title Join Date: Jan 2007 Casino cash: $-1703437	Grienke to BREWERS http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5935586 Former Cy Young Award winner Zack Greinke has been traded to the Milwaukee Brewers, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney on Sunday morning. In the deal, the Brewers would reportedly send the Royals outfielder Lorenzo Cain, shortstop Alcides Escobar and prospect pitchers Jake Odorizzi and Jeremy Jeffress for Greinke, 10-14 with a 4.17 ERA in 2010 with the Royals after winning the 2009 Cy Young. The Brewers were expected to receive another major leaguer in the deal. Jim Breem of the blog "Bernie's Crew" reported that player to be shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt.
Posts: 40,007

12-19-2010, 10:28 AM	#65
cabletech94 Everything is Awesome!!!!! Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: The Pitt Casino cash: $-1643195	at first i thought this thread was a joke. then i read some more. wish we'd gotten a catcher (may still). at least we got rid of "the worst SS in the ML's". addition by subtraction, i guess. i'll miss zach, but he's a headcase.
Posts: 11,593

12-19-2010, 10:31 AM	#67
siberian khatru 21st Century Schizoid Fan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Gates of Delirium Casino cash: $-1455050	My .02 (if it's worth even that): * That's not the trade I would've made, but when I saw the rumors last night they had more than a ring of legitimacy. Escobar and Cain are DM's kind of players. Having said that, I don't think this is the Beltran trade all over again. None of those players were anything close to the projected quality of Escobar and Odorizzi. And Cain, IMO, is not Jarrod Dyson or Joey Gathright or Blanco. Yes, that's a pretty low bar to clear, but still ... Yes, there are "If's" to overcome. But I don't think it's a big "IF" to imagine Escobar's defense returning to its stellar minor league reputation (how do you suddenly and forever lose your D at that age ... must've just been a really rough year for him all around). And he had a very low BABIP. He should rebound with the bat. He could definitely hit .275-.285 with Gold Glove level D and good speed (albeit with a mediocre OBP and low SLG). So he's no TPJ. Cain, well, DM just loves his CFs like this. He'd probably sign Omar Moreno if he could. I think Cain will be a solid MLB player. I don't know if that's enough. But I don't think he's a bum like Blanco or a bust like Gathright. So DM got what he wanted -- two everyday, up-the-middle players. I think they are better than what we have. But again, are they good enough? * So much of the emotions swirling around this involve the known and the unknown. Everyone says we should have gotten more for Greinke, but COULD we have? Right now, we don't know that. Most of the speculation involved what the Royals wanted to get, not what they were offered. Also, we have ML numbers for Cain and Escobar, and they are underwhelming. If we had gotten a MiL uber-prospect, we could bask in the glow of projecting the unknown -- just as we did with Alex Gordon a few years ago. As Deez said, "All prospects are great and have tremendous upside until they're exposed." But are you going to discard former prospects based on just one season in the majors? Or are you always going to want the unexposed prize because the projection is infinite and untarnished? I think it's WAY too early to write off Cain and Escobar because of one year, and dangerous to focus on that still-wrapped present sitting under the neighbor's tree. Yeah, there are a bunch of highly-touted prospects I'd rather have, but I don't know if they were available. If they'd EVER be available, even if DM folded his tent on Zack and waited and waited. He SHOULD have gotten more for Zack. But COULD he have? Maybe we'll find out in the coming days and weeks. If it turns out that DM declined a better deal because it didn't involve two up-the-middle guys, then I'll be inclined to rip him. But right now, I'm just trying to deal with the reality and the knowns. And what I KNOW about this deal doesn't make me want to break furniture. I don't think the players involved are bad or make no sense for the Royals. Maybe that's rationalization, but so be it. I also don't think it's fair to judge it against what we don't know.
Posts: 71,920

12-19-2010, 10:32 AM	#68
tk13 ... Join Date: Nov 2001 Casino cash: $-1987500	I don't know that I'm super excited about who we got. I'm more excited about the pitchers than the position players. But honestly I think it turned out better than I thought it would. I was half expecting to get ripped off by the Yankees stable of usually overrated prospects. I never expected a Ryan Braun type trade... I think people were aiming in the wrong direction. DM was clearly going for a Teixeira type trade... four young players we control for a long time, and that's exactly what we did. This does have the potential to bust just like the Beltran trade though, no doubt. Although in that trade I liked the position players more than the pitcher. I like Odorizzi much better than Mike Wood. And at least we got a SS who hasn't already proven he can't hit, I guess. The Brewers are definitely going for it all next year before Fielder leaves.
Posts: 56,746

12-19-2010, 10:33 AM	#69
Kidd Lex Veteran Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Kansas City Casino cash: $4402608	Lets also not forget that Greinke demanded a trade, has some serious anxiety issues, had a lackluster year last year, and admitted he had trouble finding motivation. I love the trade especially if the PTBNL is Cheech. The kid has a live arm and as long as he is on the 40 man roster, he cannot be suspended for weed. The Royals were not going to compete this year, and this trade goes a long way towards starting the youth movement in the pros, that will be complimented the next 3-4 years by what Baseball America considers the best minor league system they have ever rated. GMDM is doing a hell of a job considering Allard Baird left our minors decimated. Please look at the big picture before giving up on our squad. 2011 will be a rough year, but their is light at the end of the tunnel.
Posts: 4,160

12-19-2010, 10:36 AM	#72
tk13 ... Join Date: Nov 2001 Casino cash: $-1987500	Ken Rosenthal says the PTNBL is a "pretty good player," according to a source. http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/b...over-prospects The rest is basically how Doug Melvin has gambled his job on this trade.
Posts: 56,746

12-19-2010, 10:37 AM	#73
Consistent1 _____________ Join Date: Aug 2005 Casino cash: $10004900	Greinke still puzzles me. I like his talent and have loved watching him pitch when I've gotten the chance. I just don't see how he could even like this deal. Milwaukee isn't a bad team, but I would be wanting to go to a team that almost guarantees me an outstanding shot at 20 wins a year for at least the next several years, playoff runs, etc. I don't know if Milwaukee is the place for that. Who knows? Sucks for the Royals fans as much as anything. The team itself still couldn't win consistently with him in KC.
Posts: 3,096

12-19-2010, 10:39 AM	#74
Gonzo Stuff & Things Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Yukon Casino cash: $10126924	Well, this ***ing sucks. Nice job Moore, you piece of shit. Posted via Mobile Device*
Posts: 21,498