Veach's '21 Offseason Plan to Keep Us Thriving: Let's speculate

[Dante84]

In order to prevent us wasting precious years of Patrick Mahomes' career, Veach needs to work some magic this offseason. What's your advice for him?

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

Well I think anyone who thinks we're going to go sign big money free agents is dreaming.

That's not going to happen.

It's bargain bin and the draft.

I'd love to be wrong.

Idk why some posters are so conflicted by a game where we had 4 backups with multiple guys playing out of position.

The Chiefs drafted Niang who was a player with first rd talent but a hip injury. Now he’s coming back. They will almost assuredly draft a C in the 2nd rd IMO.

And by all means Eric Fisher will be back by Thanksgiving at the latest unless rare complications occur.

But apparently we need to spend all of our cap money and use all early picks on the OL.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

My only hang up is that for me, a 1st round draft pick should be a day 1 starter.

If they take an OT in the 1st, he needs to start day 1. Niang moves inside.

If they draft a LT and he sits while they play Rankin to fill in for Fisher, that's going to suck ass.

1) I don't necessarily think the first pick needs to start immediately, not when you're drafting #31 and coming off back-to-back SB's.

2)If they're playing Rankin at LT, this offseason was a huge fail. If they draft an OT in the first and he can't beat out Rankin, then that pick was a huge fail. Personally, that's why I go sign old man Peters, so you don't ever have to see Rankin at LT unless there's another rash of castrophe. Rankin can fight for playing time inside, but he's not an OT. Best case: Peters is a saavy old swing tackle and we never even have to play him.

3)Positionally speaking, I actually prefer a DE in the first, and by a long shot. There's a gap between Darrisaw and the 2nd tier OT guys and the 2nd tier guys are all kind of a pick'em and they may well last into the early 3rd. I find Walker Little really interesting actually.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Idk why some posters are so conflicted by a game where we had 4 backups with multiple guys playing out of position.

The Chiefs drafted Niang who was a player with first rd talent but a hip injury. Now he’s coming back. They will almost assuredly draft a C in the 2nd rd IMO.

And by all means Eric Fisher will be back by Thanksgiving at the latest unless rare complications occur.

But apparently we need to spend all of our cap money and use all early picks on the OL.

Because the line sucked all year and most of last year. The SB was just the icing on the cake, according to some.

A lot of people want to build a wall. They want to rebuild the 2003 offensive line.

[Sassy Squatch]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

They're not trading up in the 1st to take a tackle AND signing a center for $10M plus per year.

If they trade picks to get a tackle in the first, you're looking at signing some scrub at center. The most realistic place to get a new center is in the draft and they need draft picks to do that.

And Fisher is not moving to RT. That's never going to happen.

Never said Fisher moves to RT. **** it, done with this. Second time you've done this, and I'm not arguing points that I haven't made.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

1) I don't necessarily think the first pick needs to start immediately, not when you're drafting #31 and coming off back-to-back SB's.

2)If they're playing Rankin at LT, this offseason was a huge fail. If they draft an OT in the first and he can't beat out Rankin, then that pick was a huge fail. Personally, that's why I go sign old man Peters, so you don't ever have to see Rankin at LT unless there's another rash of castrophe. Rankin can fight for playing time inside, but he's not an OT. Best case: Peters is a saavy old swing tackle and we never even have to play him.

3)Positionally speaking, I actually prefer a DE in the first, and by a long shot. There's a gap between Darrisaw and the 2nd tier OT guys and the 2nd tier guys are all kind of a pick'em and they may well last into the early 3rd. I find Walker Little really interesting actually.

1. I was talking more specifically about OT and the idea that we have to draft one in the first round. If they draft an OT in the first round because of NEED, he better damn well start from day 1 or they failed to address the need. That's just the definition of need.

2. I agree which is why I said it. If they draft a tackle, he better play. It better not be someone like Rankin filling in for Fisher.

3. I agree. I absolutely hate the idea that a certain pick in a certain round HAS to be a certain position. That's how you end up drafting poorly and surrounding Mahomes with shit.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Idk why some posters are so conflicted by a game where we had 4 backups with multiple guys playing out of position.

The Chiefs drafted Niang who was a player with first rd talent but a hip injury. Now he’s coming back. They will almost assuredly draft a C in the 2nd rd IMO.

And by all means Eric Fisher will be back by Thanksgiving at the latest unless rare complications occur.

But apparently we need to spend all of our cap money and use all early picks on the OL.

well since you quoted my post I'm guessing you're not including me in that, and I would say that I agree with you largely speaking.

We're not spending a bunch of cap money on FA's on the line. I'll be REALLY surprised if we do that. Bargain bin shopping on crusty old vets that maybe have something left in the tank will be about it.

I'd love Fisher to be back by Thanksgiving; but I think it unwise to bank on it.

I'd like ONE early pick on the OL, specifically on an OT.

IF the team doctors have determined that the tear maybe wasn't that bad, and are pretty positive he'll be fine and will indeed be back by Thanksgiving then I'm cool with skipping OT early in the draft (and early means maybe up to a 2nd which is my preference) and maybe we sign old man Peters to hold the fort until Fisher gets back and then Peters becomes your swing tackle/super sub.

Basically, there won't be ANY big money sure-fire free agent pick-ups. We don't have money for that. We've kicked the can down the road about all we can. Veach is kind of a wizard and maybe he finds a way, but I expect a lot of guys nobody ever heard of on cheap deals. IF there's a bigger FA signing it'll probably be a Sammy Watkins replacement.

and bringing back our own guys coming off injury, like Charlton, maybe Osemele, guys like that. Justin Britt maybe. Old man Peters. Stuff like that.

And we'll need to draft guys for those spots too, because those guys are old and won't last long and we don't want to be looking at those same spots next year.

But that's just my opinion. I'd rather fix it for now; hedge your bet on the future and figure one of the two works out.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Superturtle

Never said Fisher moves to RT. **** it, done with this. Second time you've done this, and I'm not arguing points that I haven't made.

Dude, relax.

You said:

Trade up to draft a cornerstone T prospect and he starts at LT until/if Fisher is healthy then moves to RT while Niang moves inside.

The way you worded that, I initially read it as you were moving Fisher to RT. Looking at it now, yeah, I see your point.

You're WAY too emotional about this man. I get it, the SB sucked. You're angry. But you're letting it cloud your thinking.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

well since you quoted my post I'm guessing you're not including me in that, and I would say that I agree with you largely speaking.

We're not spending a bunch of cap money on FA's on the line. I'll be REALLY surprised if we do that. Bargain bin shopping on crusty old vets that maybe have something left in the tank will be about it.

I'd love Fisher to be back by Thanksgiving; but I think it unwise to bank on it.

I'd like ONE early pick on the OL, specifically on an OT.

IF the team doctors have determined that the tear maybe wasn't that bad, and are pretty positive he'll be fine and will indeed be back by Thanksgiving then I'm cool with skipping OT early in the draft (and early means maybe up to a 2nd which is my preference) and maybe we sign old man Peters to hold the fort until Fisher gets back and then Peters becomes your swing tackle/super sub.

Basically, there won't be ANY big money sure-fire free agent pick-ups. We don't have money for that. We've kicked the can down the road about all we can. Veach is kind of a wizard and maybe he finds a way, but I expect a lot of guys nobody ever heard of on cheap deals. IF there's a bigger FA signing it'll probably be a Sammy Watkins replacement.

and bringing back our own guys coming off injury, like Charlton, maybe Osemele, guys like that. Justin Britt maybe. Old man Peters. Stuff like that.

And we'll need to draft guys for those spots too, because those guys are old and won't last long and we don't want to be looking at those same spots next year.

But that's just my opinion. I'd rather fix it for now; hedge your bet on the future and figure one of the two works out.

Wasn’t targeting you just thinking out loud.

As mentioned, I’d like the Chiefs to draft a C in rd 2, go with Niang at RT and draft another G in the mid rds to develop like we did with LDT.

Veach already brought in Prince Tega-Wanogho and had Justin Britt in for a visit and the new league year hasn’t even started. He’ll be making moves.

Oh and I think Rankin gets a real shot to start at LG. He was solid when he played last year and we all know that it sucks being injured but not being able to go to rehab at the stadium all off-season bc of covid. Think that really hurt him.

[kccrow]

I'm trying to figure out where in the CBA it says you can't cut an injured player. I, personally, have yet to read anything specifically stating you "can't" cut an injured player and that's what the Injury Protection - Benefit (Article 45) segment comes into play in that the Chiefs would be on the hook for medical care/treatment/rehab until the injured player returns.

If someone has the specific excerpt from the CBA with a reference page number, I'd love to read it.


As for the Fisher situation, it appears there are definitely two sides here: those that think he'll return and be back to his old self and those that aren't expecting it based on statistical/medical evidence that suggests he probably won't ever be 100% and there's at least a 25% chance he'll never play again.

Whatever side you pick certainly dictates how you want to see the Chiefs attack the offseason and there will never be agreement on it.

I'd certainly love to go back to thinking everything's fine but there are two truths in the argument:
1. The offensive line cost KC a chance to win the Super Bowl. It takes longer to beat zone than man and teams that have been successful in slowing down the offense have ran zone with a two-deep shell. Mahomes needs more time going forward.
2. Fisher, healthy or not, is a free agent after 2021 unless the team re-signs him and re-signing him is expensive. With the cap implications moving forward, Fisher contributes to less talent elsewhere.

For me, I want to secure the future for Mahomes and the team. I think, given the compounding of injuries for Fisher the past few years, I'd rather send a couple of low-30's 1sts for a top 15 LT and move on. Use his money in FA to get a couple of guys to fill other positions like a solid veteran C and #2 WR that keep the window open now.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

1. I was talking more specifically about OT and the idea that we have to draft one in the first round. If they draft an OT in the first round because of NEED, he better damn well start from day 1 or they failed to address the need. That's just the definition of need.

2. I agree which is why I said it. If they draft a tackle, he better play. It better not be someone like Rankin filling in for Fisher.

3. I agree. I absolutely hate the idea that a certain pick in a certain round HAS to be a certain position. That's how you end up drafting poorly and surrounding Mahomes with shit.

Yeah, this is an uncommonly deep draft for OT's; and since it IS an area of need (though we may disagree on HOW much we need one) I feel like we oughta take one, but not necessarily in the first. I think there's a bigger drop-off after, say, a Jaelen Phillips to like a Weaver or Basham Jr. than there is from Darrisaw to say the Mayfield/Eichenberg/Radunz tier. And Little may end up better than all of them, but hasn't played football in a year and a half. He IS a Stanford guy though, and dummies don't go to Stanford, so that's a + in his column.

All of which I would like to try to hedge with some of these vets that are coming off of injuries and trying to re-establish their careers. Cheap stop-gaps while you figure out what you have with the young ones. I just think it's smart if you can't throw money at it to throw numbers at it. Double your chances of success, and if you somehow end up with too much talent to play, well that's a good problem to have.

If we DO sign a significant FA cap-wise, I'd bet it's a WR to take Sammy's spot.

but-and these are just guys that makes sense to me at the moment but it could be others-Peters and Britt would be super cheap stop-gap guys that would be upgrades over what we currently have if they're healthy.

I don't want to waste another year of prime Mahomes on an offensive line performance like that when it's avoidable. I mean it WASN'T avoidable really, but it is now.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by kccrow

I'm trying to figure out where in the CBA it says you can't cut an injured player. I, personally, have yet to read anything specifically stating you "can't" cut an injured player and that's what the Injury Protection - Benefit (Article 45) segment comes into play in that the Chiefs would be on the hook for medical care/treatment/rehab until the injured player returns.

If someone has the specific excerpt from the CBA with a reference page number, I'd love to read it.


As for the Fisher situation, it appears there are definitely two sides here: those that think he'll return and be back to his old self and those that aren't expecting it based on statistical/medical evidence that suggests he probably won't ever be 100% and there's at least a 25% chance he'll never play again.

Whatever side you pick certainly dictates how you want to see the Chiefs attack the offseason and there will never be agreement on it.

I'd certainly love to go back to thinking everything's fine but there are two truths in the argument:
1. The offensive line cost KC a chance to win the Super Bowl. It takes longer to beat zone than man and teams that have been successful in slowing down the offense have ran zone with a two-deep shell. Mahomes needs more time going forward.
2. Fisher, healthy or not, is a free agent after 2021 unless the team re-signs him and re-signing him is expensive. With the cap implications moving forward, Fisher contributes to less talent elsewhere.

For me, I want to secure the future for Mahomes and the team. I think, given the compounding of injuries for Fisher the past few years, I'd rather send a couple of low-30's 1sts for a top 15 LT and move on. Use his money in FA to get a couple of guys to fill other positions like a solid veteran C and #2 WR that keep the window open now.

I've read that you can't just cut an injured player, and I've heard that repeated but I can't tell you for certain where.

At any rate, I largely agree with you, but the only thing that I would disagree with is I'd rather not hurt ourselves next year if we can help it. We may not be able to, but I'd prefer to not mortgage draft capital unless we absolutely must.

And maybe we must, I don't know. I trust Veach to handle it; he rebuilt a historically bad defense in one offseason so who knows. He HAS shown a willingness to part with #1 picks to get a guy he wants. But, everyone knows it's going to be a pick around #30, so there's that.

[Chris Meck]

This OT class...I mean...so we took Fisher #1 overall, right? #2 Joekel was out of football before his first contract was up.

Judging by Fisher's predaft scouting reports, and comparing with these guys...

I think Fisher would've gone like maybe in the late 20's in this draft. He'd be maybe the guy taken after Darrisaw. Maybe later. Maybe around the early 2nd.

It's that deep, just basing my observation off of the scouting reports which are the same guys in a lot of cases judging both classes.

and 2013 was that BAD a draft class. Figures we'd get the #1 overall in that year. Fisher's a good player, but jeez.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Wasn’t targeting you just thinking out loud.

As mentioned, I’d like the Chiefs to draft a C in rd 2, go with Niang at RT and draft another G in the mid rds to develop like we did with LDT.

Veach already brought in Prince Tega-Wanogho and had Justin Britt in for a visit and the new league year hasn’t even started. He’ll be making moves.

Oh and I think Rankin gets a real shot to start at LG. He was solid when he played last year and we all know that it sucks being injured but not being able to go to rehab at the stadium all off-season bc of covid. Think that really hurt him.

Wanogho's interesting. I was reading his scouting reports earlier. Only criticisms are technique and you can teach that. Britt, if he's healthy, is a plus player and still just 29. So yeah, it'd be awesome to hit on either or both of those guys.

[kccrow]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I've read that you can't just cut an injured player, and I've heard that repeated but I can't tell you for certain where.

At any rate, I largely agree with you, but the only thing that I would disagree with is I'd rather not hurt ourselves next year if we can help it. We may not be able to, but I'd prefer to not mortgage draft capital unless we absolutely must.

And maybe we must, I don't know. I trust Veach to handle it; he rebuilt a historically bad defense in one offseason so who knows. He HAS shown a willingness to part with #1 picks to get a guy he wants. But, everyone knows it's going to be a pick around #30, so there's that.

That's the thing, I've seen it regurgitated with zero evidence of truth. If you read Article 45, Section 2, you'll see specific language stating "...if the player's contract was terminated by his Club..." That leads me to believe, along with finding nothing in the rest of the CBA (although I didn't go over with a fine-tooth comb), that the regurgitation is complete bullshit. I could be wrong and it's in there somewhere, but I question it and assume otherwise until I see it.

[mkp785]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

This OT class...I mean...so we took Fisher #1 overall, right? #2 Joekel was out of football before his first contract was up.

Judging by Fisher's predaft scouting reports, and comparing with these guys...

I think Fisher would've gone like maybe in the late 20's in this draft. He'd be maybe the guy taken after Darrisaw. Maybe later. Maybe around the early 2nd.

It's that deep, just basing my observation off of the scouting reports which are the same guys in a lot of cases judging both classes.

and 2013 was that BAD a draft class. Figures we'd get the #1 overall in that year. Fisher's a good player, but jeez.

I think if that draft happens again Hopkins goes 1st. Cant blame them for not grabbing him though as no one saw him being this good.