Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

[Mr. Kotter]

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

[Chief Faithful]

Originally Posted by jspchief

I'm living it. I had Americans making 30k a year working for me, that left for low education office jobs making 22k per year.

It's not just about money. It's hard fucking work. And our high schools are villifying the construction industry to the point that young adults don't consider these jobs as viable careers. 50 years ago, plumber or carpenter was an honest living. Now schools use those jobs as a threatened fate if you don't go to college.

You hit a nerve with me. I wanted to be a carpenter, but my high school discouraged me on that career path and pointed me towards electronics. Although electronics has made me a comfortable living I am pissed for life over what my HS counselor did to me.

If I had been a carpenter I would have become a developer. From there I would have owned properties and developed real wealth. I have a developer friend that keeps one house from each development as rental property. After 20 years he has 20 houses owned free and clear earning him $36K per month. This does not count the value of the property.

To this day I am a hobby carpenter and regret that I did not go to school and study the subject and really develop my skills as a youth. My job in "electronics" earns me enough to keep me enslaved and unable to change professions, but not enough to develop real wealth.

[MahiMike]

Do nothing.

The system works well as we currently have it. These folks provide a service that few Americans are willing to do, they do it cheap and it's the only form on 'insourcing' in America.

And that's a hell of a lot better than the opposite!

[Donger]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

I think Donger is right.

Pfft. As if I could be anything else!?

[Donger]

Originally Posted by ENDelt260

Which has a tendency to set me off on a whole 'nother rant...

I could see you as a plumber.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by MahiMike

Do nothing.

The system works well as we currently have it. These folks provide a service that few Americans are willing to do, they do it cheap and it's the only form on 'insourcing' in America.

And that's a hell of a lot better than the opposite!

Except for the breaking the law thing and the fact that they take far more than they bring in, I'd agree with you.

[Mr. Kotter]

Originally Posted by MahiMike

Do nothing.

The system works well as we currently have it. These folks provide a service that few Americans are willing to do, they do it cheap and it's the only form on 'insourcing' in America.

And that's a hell of a lot better than the opposite!

Shouldn't we "legalize" the current system then?

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Mr. Kotter

Sure you are allowed; I just wanted to root out some others too...

I think most will concede some inflation; I just think, in the long term, it wouldn't be as bad as some (you?) expect....

I realize Americans are cheap, but the bottom-line for me is....if the current system fosters illegal hiring by businesses, that needs to change--or the law needs to change, IMO.

Saying the law is one thing, and then winking and looking the other way when businesses circumvent the law is not something we should encourage or be proud of, IMO.

So either legalize it, or change the law.

I'm in an interesting position on the topic. I've actually seen the progression of illegal labor in an industry. When I first got into roofing, there were literally no Mexicans doing it around Des Moines. I remember the first company that started hiring them, and the way we scoffed at it as sacrificing quality for price. When I started my business, I had no hispanic employees or subcontractors. Then one day while working, a Mexican guy climbed on the roof and asked if he could have a job. I was skeptical, but desperate for help, so I told him I'd give him a chance. He worked long hard hours, and was a fast learner in spite of pretty limited english. He also provided documentation. Soon his brother and a friend were working for me too, all earning the same wage I start anyone at. Eventually, he recognized that I paid some crews as sub contractors instead of employees, and wanted to do that. While it cuts into my profit, it also cuts my overhead, so I let him become a subcontractor. We became very close friends, and eventually he confided in me that he was illegal. He was hands down the best crew I had working for me, and a friend, so I allowed him to continue to do work for me. He's since moved back to Mexico to care for his ailing parents.

During that same span, I started losing a lot of the young American guys that were the backbone of the start of my business. They just wanted to move on to easier jobs. And I was having a hell of a time replacing them. The few times I'd find someone willing to roof, it would either be a loser job-hopper, or a subcontractor that wanted almost as much as I was charging my customers. The one place I could continually find workers was in Mexicans. I never paid them less than the Americans I employed, and required documentation of them. But they would routinely put in longer hours, and do better work. They were simply better workers.

Now when I go to high schools looking for kids to work summers, I find no one. I can still find mexican help, but most only want to subcontract, and it's hard to control who they bring to a jobsite on a given day. I know there are times when the money I'm paying out ends up in the hands of illegals. Every non-union residential roofing company in Des Moines is experiencing the same thing. Even the family owned businesses that have been around for 3+ generations. No one is going to pay more for my product if I tell them I strictly use legal workers. When it comes to saving $500 on a new roof, people don't give a shit who's doing the nailing. You can't just take the moral high ground by offering more money to only employ legals.

It's not something that happens overnight, where you decide to just start using illegal labor practices. I'd much rather be building a company of legit employees that can grow and become something. I held out for a long time in regards to being strict on my hiring practices, and lost numerous customers due to inability to come up with the labor or meet price demands. Now I mostly just roof by myself. There aren't a bunch of unemployed Americans that need or want these jobs. Jobs that can pay 30k+ per year if you put in the work.

There's a lot of guys out there just like me. They aren't getting rich exploiting illegals. They are trying to keep their business afloat with whoever they can find to work for them. If I had it my way, I'd still be paying the kids coming out of high school. Those kids don't want the job I'm offering.

[stevieray]

Originally Posted by jspchief

I'm in an interesting position on the topic. I've actually seen the progression of illegal labor in an industry. When I first got into roofing, there were literally no Mexicans doing it around Des Moines. I remember the first company that started hiring them, and the way we scoffed at it as sacrificing quality for price. When I started my business, I had no hispanic employees or subcontractors. Then one day while working, a Mexican guy climbed on the roof and asked if he could have a job. I was skeptical, but desperate for help, so I told him I'd give him a chance. He worked long hard hours, and was a fast learner in spite of pretty limited english. He also provided documentation. Soon his brother and a friend were working for me too, all earning the same wage I start anyone at. Eventually, he recognized that I paid some crews as sub contractors instead of employees, and wanted to do that. While it cuts into my profit, it also cuts my overhead, so I let him become a subcontractor. We became very close friends, and eventually he confided in me that he was illegal. He was hands down the best crew I had working for me, and a friend, so I allowed him to continue to do work for me. He's since moved back to Mexico to care for his ailing parents.

During that same span, I started losing a lot of the young American guys that were the backbone of the start of my business. They just wanted to move on to easier jobs. And I was having a hell of a time replacing them. The few times I'd find someone willing to roof, it would either be a loser job-hopper, or a subcontractor that wanted almost as much as I was charging my customers. The one place I could continually find workers was in Mexicans. I never paid them less than the Americans I employed, and required documentation of them. But they would routinely put in longer hours, and do better work. They were simply better workers.

Now when I go to high schools looking for kids to work summers, I find no one. I can still find mexican help, but most only want to subcontract, and it's hard to control who they bring to a jobsite on a given day. I know there are times when the money I'm paying out ends up in the hands of illegals. Every non-union residential roofing company in Des Moines is experiencing the same thing. Even the family owned businesses that have been around for 3+ generations. No one is going to pay more for my product if I tell them I strictly use legal workers. When it comes to saving $500 on a new roof, people don't give a shit who's doing the nailing. You can't just take the moral high ground by offering more money to only employ legals.

It's not something that happens overnight, where you decide to just start using illegal labor practices. I'd much rather be building a company of legit employees that can grow and become something. I held out for a long time in regards to being strict on my hiring practices, and lost numerous customers due to inability to come up with the labor or meet price demands. Now I mostly just roof by myself. There aren't a bunch of unemployed Americans that need or want these jobs. Jobs that can pay 30k+ per year if you put in the work.

There's a lot of guys out there just like me. They aren't getting rich exploiting illegals. They are trying to keep their business afloat with whoever they can find to work for them. If I had it my way, I'd still be paying the kids coming out of high school. Those kids don't want the job I'm offering.

your posts on this thread have been very informative and logical. thanks!

It all boils down to pride and the media pimping you are what you own.

Seems too many Americans think they should have grandpas lifetime of work success before they are thirty.

It would take a major recession before Americans could be humbled back to reality, which is be thankful for any opportunity, something the illegals already know.

[SCTrojan]

Originally Posted by jspchief

The thing that people don't realize is a lot of these people are perfectly content working illegally, and not having to pay taxes on their wages. There are a lot of illegals that are in no hurry to be legalized.

I think many people realize this exact thing, and that is at the heart of the emotionalism this debate evokes.

For the record, I'm for getting the border under control first. Someone compared it to bailing the boat without fixing the hole, and I think that's an apt analogy. But to continue that analogy, you still have to bail the boat to get at the hole.

I'm also (I think) for some sort of streamlining of the legalization process. In my very preliminary research, I think we provide some 480,000 work visas. The way I understand it, most of those are essentially earmarked for relatives of people who are already here legally. We also issue some other types of visas for professionals, etc., but all told, with the others, we give out a total of 600K. I don't know if that's enough to satisfy the demand or not. On the surface, it seems not.

Getting back to the premise that many illegals are perfectly content to maintain the status quo, I think there should be some recompense for time they have spent here. I don't know what it is, I don't even have suggestions, but there should be something. There is something intrinsically wrong with being here and deriving benefits without giving back. In one of the most outrageous examples of things being out of kilter, my wife (a military spouse) does not qualify for in-state tuition where we are, but illegal immigrants do.

Finally, it strikes me as ironic that thousands of people are exercising one of the primary tenets of First Amendment rights on behalf of people who aren't even citizens.

In the end, we have a problem and we must deal with it realistically if we are to truly solve it. Out and out deportation of all illegals is not, in my mind, dealing with it realistically. But I think we have to get past the current rhetoric and emotionalism before we can find the right solution.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by stevieray

It would take a major recession before Americans could be humbled back to reality, which is be thankful for any opportunity, something the illegals already know.

Very well stated, although I would replace "illegals" with "immigrants".

They don't have to be illegal to respect the value of a steady job/wage. However, paying them as legal residents is going to increase the cost of goods in the industries that used to pay them as illegals.

[stevieray]

Originally Posted by jspchief

Very well stated, although I would replace "illegals" with "immigrants".

They don't have to be illegal to respect the value of a steady job/wage. However, paying them as legal residents is going to increase the cost of goods in the industries that used to pay them as illegals.

point taken.

[banyon]

I'm going to have to start calling patteeu "Amnesty Pat" in honor of his buddy "Amnesty Sam" Brownback.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by banyon

I'm going to have to start calling patteeu "Amnesty Pat" in honor of his buddy "Amnesty Sam" Brownback.

I'll wear the label proudly. I'm not for rewarding illegals by moving them to the front of the citizenship line or by granting them instant citizenship, but I think we should welcome those who are here because they want to be Americans and who are willing to work for the American dream. But we need to stop the inflow and divert it to legal channels to satisfy our demand for population growth and cheap labor.

amnesty patteeu

[picasso]

Originally Posted by Saulbadguy

Exactly. Alot of people don't realize how much of a strain it would put on the economy to "drop the hammer".

I know it would employ more PROFESSIONAL construction workers. Quality would go up and it wouldn't change the cost that much in that construction companies already pay 5 mexicans to do 2 americans jobs.
I haven't met a mexican construction crew yet that did as good a job as a professional construction worker in the field of framing, drywall or concrete. Any crew is fast with 8 guys getting paid $5 an hour but you suffer somewhere.

[BucEyedPea]

I am not buyin' into the idea that Americans won't do these jobs.

If the free-market, and I mean we need a free-market inside America first, can't get people to fill these jobs then the scarce labor pool demands higher pay, better benefits and improved working conditions for these jobs which should go to our poorest Americans first.

So the costs go up! BFD! Soooo...the illegals are getting free taxpayer services too. Don't tell me they don't. I know someone who rents to one who had a baby and Medicaid paid for it. So we pay for it somewhere. Our poor American citizens can come off welfare instead so it balances out.

Further,if costs get too high people just won't buy as it's too much to bear and then the costs come back down or that industry has to become more efficient and productive.This is how the market works...it regulates itself.

Many of these are jobs for teenagers too.

Do not reward the behavior you don't want. Just increase how many can come in legally.

Anyhow, many of these illegals do not want to be citizens, show no loyalty to America and want to reclaim former Mexican land. That's dangerous imo.

In fact amnesty was granted to the hordes that invaded Rome and it contributed to it's fall due to the corruption of these hordes and in the Senate. So our Nero-like-Senate repeats the same mistake.

What's Vincente Fox's next move? Probably to sack Phoenix and then LA.