**Official Royals vs. Phillies 4/7 Gamethread** AKA Vengeance Game

[CaliforniaChief]

Alrighty, we took our first heartbreaker last night.

The Phillies walked their way to a walk-off. Time to brush it off, forget about it, win this God-forsaken series, and go home with a .500 road trip.

Time for Big Game James to earn that name and outduel Hamels.

Let's. Do. This.

[siberian khatru]

Originally Posted by tk13

I definitely have an Andy Kaufman-esque sense of humor. I've never denied otherwise. It's no big deal. Just like people flipping out on a message board, I didn't think flipping people crap on a message board was a big deal. But if it's that frustrating, I apologize.

Just ignore me. Sorry.

[lewdog]

I really appreciate those who post in the game threads and talk about this great game. I don't have a deep baseball knowledge, and plenty on this board do so I really enjoy it. I have always been an isolated Royals fan and do not know even ONE person in real-life who is a Royals fan. Having this board is really enjoyable.

(No Chiefshrink, I am not talking about you. Go find an AIDS tree and never post in a Royals thread again.)

[WoodDraw]

Originally Posted by Chiefshrink

Well until we get our bullpen to grow some tough mental balls(get some confidence over time in small increments) or get better talent, WINS are the most important thing right now 'early on' from a whole team psyche perspective. And we can't afford to lose more than we win 'early on' if we are to make it to the playoffs because we don't have the 'strong psyche' built yet to endure that kind of adversity. Therefore to your point I think Yost has to go unorthodox a bit in the latter innings with the bullpen until their is some good confidence built that will allow for more of a standard bullpen approach.

I'm not sure that was my point, but okay. I agree though, other than the "standard bullpen approach." I don't know what that means, and if it's anything a Royals manager in the past few decades has followed, I probably don't like it.

But yes, it takes awhile to settle down bullpens. We'll figure out the best roles for everyone once we get a reasonable sample size. Holland has been great for two years, but now he doesn't have all the buzz words sports fans like to talk about? I'm not ready to throw him under a bus just yet.

[MeatRock]

Holland will be fine. Our whole bullpen outside of Hoch will be fine.

[BlackHelicopters]

I proudly spew forth Royals when everyone around has on a cardinals cap.

[duncan_idaho]

I think you see Holland get one more shot, at least. He's overthrowing on his fastball and his release point is inconsistent. He's got good velocity, but his fastball doesn't have great movement. As Montgomery was saying, he has to throw strikes with his fastball to set up his secondary pitches. The slider and splitter are his best pitches, and guys don't chase those when you aren't throwing strikes with the fastball.

Some uncomfortable flaps today, but I'm still not worried about this pen. Too much talent to do that.

There are at least 25 teams around the major leagues that would gladly swap bullpen personnel on the spot with the Royals. The Nationals and Braves being the only obvious exceptions I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe the Reds, though their pen is not that intimidating after Chapman.

[Chiefshrink]

Originally Posted by lewdog

I don't have a deep baseball knowledge,

Well this explains a lot. But I do and have played it at a fairly high level as a pitcher(starter not a closer). Baseball is such a mental game and especially with pitchers. You know immediately after the first 5-10 pitches(with closers only) whether they 'have it' or not. And when they don't have it you get them out especially with a 2 run lead in the 9th with no outs especially after walking the first 2 even if your remaining options are not as good because anyone else who can at least get the ball across the plate will make the opponent earn their win as opposed to being given the win is all I'm saying.

[MeatRock]

Originally Posted by Chiefshrink

Well this explains a lot. But I do and have played it at a fairly high level as a pitcher(starter not a closer). Baseball is such a mental game and especially with pitchers. You know immediately after the first 5-10 pitches(with closers only) whether they 'have it' or not. And when they don't have it you get them out especially with a 2 run lead in the 9th with no outs especially after walking the first 2 even if your remaining options are not as good because anyone else who can at least get the ball across the plate will make the opponent earn their win as opposed to being given the win is all I'm saying.

I can't tell. Sorry

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by Chiefshrink

Well this explains a lot. But I do and have played it at a fairly high level as a pitcher(starter not a closer). Baseball is such a mental game and especially with pitchers. You know immediately after the first 5-10 pitches(with closers only) whether they 'have it' or not. And when they don't have it you get them out especially with a 2 run lead in the 9th with no outs especially after walking the first 2 even if your remaining options are not as good because anyone else who can at least get the ball across the plate will make the opponent earn their win as opposed to being given the win is all I'm saying.

Please share an example of any manager who treats the guy he has picked as his closer this way.

Even a good closer is going to have some tense outings in 1/3 to 1/4 of his save opportunities. You can't yank your closer every time he walks a hitter or gives up a hit to the first guy.

30/30 managers in baseball would have run the 7th-9th innings the same way Yost did yesterday. 30/30 managers in baseball would have gone to their closer in the spot he did today.

I don't know how many would have the guts to pull their guy the way he did today, though.

[gblowfish]

I was working outdoors today and listened in off an on. Glad Ned didn't make the same mistake twice in two days. And credit where credit is due. I thought we'd get swept in Philly, and save for Ned being a bonehead last night, we could have easily swept the Phillies. So, nice job coming home with a .500 roadie. Now we MUST play better at home than we did last year. If you recall, we were HIDEOUS at home last year. Must have a good April. Must....must....must!

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by gblowfish

I was working outdoors today and listened in off an on. Glad Ned didn't make the same mistake twice in two days. And credit where credit is due. I thought we'd get swept in Philly, and save for Ned being a bonehead last night, we could have easily swept the Phillies. So, nice job coming home with a .500 roadie. Now we MUST play better at home than we did last year. If you recall, we were HIDEOUS at home last year. Must have a good April. Must....must....must!

Ned was not a bonehead last night.

[DeezNutz]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

I think you see Holland get one more shot, at least. He's overthrowing on his fastball and his release point is inconsistent. He's got good velocity, but his fastball doesn't have great movement. As Montgomery was saying, he has to throw strikes with his fastball to set up his secondary pitches. The slider and splitter are his best pitches, and guys don't chase those when you aren't throwing strikes with the fastball.

Some uncomfortable flaps today, but I'm still not worried about this pen. Too much talent to do that.

There are at least 25 teams around the major leagues that would gladly swap bullpen personnel on the spot with the Royals. The Nationals and Braves being the only obvious exceptions I can think of off the top of my head. Maybe the Reds, though their pen is not that intimidating after Chapman.

I've been surprised that he's been away/away with the fastball the last two days. He has to utilize the inner third, too, and perhaps this all goes back to the fact that he's not trusting his stuff (for some screwy reason) right now?

[DJ's left nut]

I just want to poke my head in shortly to show you guys something.

Greg Holland doesn't suck. He just doesn't. He has among the better sliders in baseball and mid-90s gas. Sometimes he loses the zone...so does virtually every reliever. He's probably not elite but he does not suck.

However, Holland's suck/not suck is irrelevant to the discussion of who should be the closer on the Royals. Take a look at this:

1


2



3



Anyone have a quick guess as to what those pitches were? Those weren't screwballs, they weren't sinkers. They were changeups with the kind of armside run you just don't see from changeups. That's a 2-seamer break on a changeup. The 2nd one is especially vile.

Now look at those 3 pictures more closely, notably, look at the count. Anyone notice anything?

He threw those back to back to back. He pitched backwards off his change, threw it 3 times in a row and the damn pitch was so good that Saltalamaccia still looked like an idiot on the 3rd one, even with 2 prior looks at it.

Oh, and Herrera's fastball is possibly the best in baseball (I like Rosenthal's a little more, but there's certainly room for debate).

Guys, Kelvin Herrera could be the best reliever in the major leagues. I know, Holland's a good pitcher and you'd hate to cut his legs out from under him this quickly, but Herrera has stuff that you just don't see very often and if you're struggling in the 9th, the answer is easy, IMO.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by DeezNutz

I've been surprised that he's been away/away with the fastball the last two days. He has to utilize the inner third, too, and perhaps this all goes back to the fact that he's not trusting his stuff (for some screwy reason) right now?

I'd have to break down better tape of him than I have from the TV broadcasts to be sure, but his release point has looked inconsistent. Not sure if that's a landing point/leg/arm issue.

It's also hard to try to go inside when you're not sure if your fastball is going to be straight or break 2-3 inches. At least effectively. I think some of those fastballs he's left over the middle to lefties have been pitches he was trying to throw inside that have drifted out.

[DeezNutz]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

I'd have to break down better tape of him than I have from the TV broadcasts to be sure, but his release point has looked inconsistent. Not sure if that's a landing point/leg/arm issue.

It's also hard to try to go inside when you're not sure if your fastball is going to be straight or break 2-3 inches. At least effectively. I think some of those fastballs he's left over the middle to lefties have been pitches he was trying to throw inside that have drifted out.

He's getting that kind of action on a 4-seamer?