Saunders-haters: Why NOT Al? - Page 7

Mr. Kotter · 12-20-2005, 10:36 AM

Why rebuild, when you can reload? Come on, hear me out on this....

I've read here and elsewhere, it's because CP doesn't "like" Saunders; or he has different politics than the rest of the FO. I've read that he's pissed off LJ; and that LJ is CP's boy. I've read Al gets too "cute" with his play calling. I've read he's already been a HC, and failed. While there may be some element of truth to each of those charges....as major reasons to not consider hiring Saunders, I just don't buy any of it.

This is football. While the team has suffered as a result of DV's neglect of the defense IMO, Al has done his job extremely well. Saunders has been a big part of some of the most consistently successful offenses in the history of the league. The Chief's offense the last five years has been a joy to watch--90% of the time. If Roaf comes back, filling Shields spot is the only significant task left to do on that side of the ball. Yes, developing a young tackle or two, finding a QBOTF, converting Wilson from TE to FB to replace TRich (or something like that-heh), and signing a quality back up for LJ, are all we would really need to do for the next two or three years on Offense. Very "doable" in my mind.

Now, having said that......something dramatic has to be done on the Defensive side of the ball. However, who's to say that with Saunders taking over, that he and CP won't be able to cherry-pick the coaches that are worth keeping, while at the same time hiring new coaches in key areas.....

Along with a couple of key additions to the defensive personnel, in the draft and in FA (provided we can clear the cap room) and I think we will have just reloaded, instead of rebuilding.

Thoughts, comments, or reactions?

Frankie · 12-20-2005, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danush

First of all, WHERE are we hearing all this "Saunders doesn't like LJ" type stuff? Is that on talk radio in KC or what?As for the rest, I don't think Saunders is the next Martz. I could be wrong. However, averaging 30-35 touches for both Priest and LJ, when they have been the focus of the offense, respectively? That's getting "cute?" You can't hand them the ball every down, and expect them to last the season, can you? The Buffalo game was the exception during his stint here in KC--it was the rare exception, not the rule. Not even close.

As for your assessment of his record here as OC, I'd say you are being extremely tough. Wow. I sure wouldn't want YOU for my boss. You strike me as the type who would never be happy, regardless of how "well" someone did.

Thank you. These folks are mad at CP and DV and are willing to set fire on everybody. AS has done a great job. Not PERFECT. But great.

booger · 12-20-2005, 08:25 PM

Who would he pick as OC? Shea? No thanks. While he didn't have the talent or the time at Chicago, I say no way to a second chance here. His best asset is his ability to fundimentaly teach QB's. Hell he even wrote a book on it.

Joiner? Almost 20 years as a WR coach. Why hasn't he got an offer for a OC job yet? Lack of his own interest or whatever. Verduzco would basically be a hand puppet as well If Saunders chose to call his own plays.

Solari would be an excellent choice IF he would be allowed to build it around our running and play action game. Hell, I wouldn't even be upset with Norv Turner with his relationship with Green and the job he did in dallas as an OC. Hell, from Green, AS, and even DV, that's the team we could have resembled according to the early years, '01, '02. A strong running team with weapons at TE and FB, something St. Louie didn't have.

Who is the DC? Gunther? It couldn't be any different under Saunders. The best job Gun may have done in recent years is as LB/ass. HC in Tennessee. That's because he had a ton of respect for Fisher and blended in greatly with a good defensive staff there. Hell, his ego was in check. Short of Jeff Fischer coming here, I really don't see any HC who could control Gun like Marty did. I couldn't see a first time defensive minded HC being able to get the best out of Gun basically because of Gunthers ego. He wants to do everything himself.

And back to Saunders. Other than continuing the offense, what else does he bring to the table? Could he let an OC like Solari grow and develope his own style to what is a great offense? Could he be more open to drafting skilled players that maybe don't fit the scheme to an exect T but have talent and incorporate them? Would he except a smaller playbook maybe easier for younger players and new commers to learn at a quicker pace? Would he allow for more options of being able to audible for a vet QB like Green?

Can he lay off the O some and focus on fixing the problems on special teams and defense?

I just don't see it. Somebody tell me how this would not be comparable to Gunther part two?

Hell, he might go on to some other team and have success. Somewhere that he would HAVE to adjust to the current roster and maybe realize what works. I just don't have any Idea what type of plan he would have as a HC.

I'd rather take a chance on a defensive minded HC. That's what we really need. If we could get someone in the same mindset and do similer things that Lewis has in Cincy and Lovie Smith has in Chicago I would be very satisfied.

Danush · 12-20-2005, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by booger

...Other than DV, Saunders obviously has the biggest influence on who we bring in Draft/FA wise. Yes our current starters and a select few others have done very well. But what about the Future starting next season?

I agree that we haven't developed enough young players. However, in the last 3-4 years that's begun to change. With the constraints of the salary cap, that isn't an easy trick. And while we haven't done well in the draft, we have do have a few young players with good potential and upside: Sampson, Black, Parker, Wilson, Thorpe, and maybe Svitek.

booger · 12-20-2005, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danush

I agree that we haven't developed enough young players. However, in the last 3-4 years that's begun to change. With the constraints of the salary cap, that isn't an easy trick. And while we haven't done well in the draft, we have do have a few young players with good potential and upside: Sampson, Black, Parker, Wilson, Thorpe, and maybe Svitek.

Yes it has got better. On both sides of the ball. I still have a big problem with the quick twitch WR's we go after later in the rounds. We could use a taller weapon especially in the redzone. The lack of a developmental QB pisses me off even more. We have an 8 man practice squad but can't even choose one to hang around at least for the purpose of going to meetings and learning knowlege of the offense? Most of that is DV wanting 2 vet backups as well. As far as the Oline goes, you just can't go out and try to find the next Shields or Roaf or be that lucky to develope another Waters. I just wonder if Saunders along with whoever his OC would be could make the subtle changes for younger and new players to pick up the system, allow for more of an audible system for the qb, and at times when needed, stick with a ball control clock eating drives to keep a weak D of the field. Hell I'd love to see him feed the ball to LJ even MORE when he is hot, especially in the redzone instead of the cute passes.

Brock · 12-21-2005, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danush

First of all, WHERE are we hearing all this "Saunders doesn't like LJ" type stuff?

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/3610994

Mending fences
I have heard of making peace with a player, but I've never heard of a NFL coach checking in with the player's father first. This happened recently when Kansas City offensive coordinator Al Saunders visited with Penn State assistant coach Larry Johnson, Sr. to talk about his son, the Chiefs' backup running back to Priest Holmes.

You see, Saunders was never a big fan of Larry Johnson, the running back. He preferred Derrick Blaylock as Holmes' replacement and stuck to that judgment until Johnson was forced on him late last season. Johnson was drafted in Round 1 of the 2003 draft because GM Carl Peterson wanted a talented young back should Holmes not recover from a hip injury. The player was also threatening a contract situation at the time.

Chiefs backup running back Larry Johnson has had a tumultuous time in Kansas City, including a chilly relationship with KC offensive coordinator Al Saunders. (Stephen Dunn / Getty Images)

Well, we all know that Johnson finished the season with 11 touchdowns and 581 rushing yards in three late-season starts. After being told that the kid had nothing in his tank, the whole world discovered that maybe Johnson was worthy of being selected in the first round.

But for two years, Saunders and Larry Johnson didn't speak much to each other; the player knowing that Saunders didn't believe he was worthy of playing time. Those beliefs have to change now, especially with the Chiefs hoping to make another Super Bowl run in probably coach Dick Vermeil's final season. Apparently, the father told Saunders that he should be talking to his son. The word in K.C. is that the running back was in Las Vegas and would check in with Saunders the next time he's in town.

This was a big move on Saunders' part, trying to patch up a sour relationship. It was probably a smart move for an assistant who hopes to replace Vermeil some day as head coach of the Chiefs.

htismaqe · 12-21-2005, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankie

The failure you are refering to is not "offensive." It's because of DV's unfortunate decision to hire GRob as our DC. That set us bac 3 years minimum. As long as neither AS nor other candidates can guarantee success, I think we should not try to fix the one part of our system that's far from broke. And that's our offensive system. Al presents the best insurance that at least that part will continue in a reasonable faximile.

This is a TEAM failure and yes, Saunders is part of it. I don't care how many yards they rack up.

Super Bowl or bust.

milkman · 12-21-2005, 08:56 AM

Why not Al?

Two reasons.

First, I agree with Parker, this team needs a start fresh in the coaching ranks.

Second, Gunt has worked for, or with, Al Saunders for much of his career, serving as SD's D-Line coach when Al was HC, and working on the same staff under Marty for 4 years, and under Dick for 2 years.

I think it is very likely that Al will retain Gunt if he gets the job, and Gunt is not a good DC, and needs to go every bit as much as Dick does.

Mr. Kotter · 12-21-2005, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/3610994

Mending fences
I have heard of making peace with a player, but I've never heard of a NFL coach checking in with the player's father first. This happened recently when Kansas City offensive coordinator Al Saunders visited with Penn State assistant coach Larry Johnson, Sr. to talk about his son, the Chiefs' backup running back to Priest Holmes.

You see, Saunders was never a big fan of Larry Johnson, the running back. He preferred Derrick Blaylock as Holmes' replacement and stuck to that judgment until Johnson was forced on him late last season. Johnson was drafted in Round 1 of the 2003 draft because GM Carl Peterson wanted a talented young back should Holmes not recover from a hip injury. The player was also threatening a contract situation at the time.

Chiefs backup running back Larry Johnson has had a tumultuous time in Kansas City, including a chilly relationship with KC offensive coordinator Al Saunders. (Stephen Dunn / Getty Images)

Well, we all know that Johnson finished the season with 11 touchdowns and 581 rushing yards in three late-season starts. After being told that the kid had nothing in his tank, the whole world discovered that maybe Johnson was worthy of being selected in the first round.

But for two years, Saunders and Larry Johnson didn't speak much to each other; the player knowing that Saunders didn't believe he was worthy of playing time. Those beliefs have to change now, especially with the Chiefs hoping to make another Super Bowl run in probably coach Dick Vermeil's final season. Apparently, the father told Saunders that he should be talking to his son. The word in K.C. is that the running back was in Las Vegas and would check in with Saunders the next time he's in town.

This was a big move on Saunders' part, trying to patch up a sour relationship. It was probably a smart move for an assistant who hopes to replace Vermeil some day as head coach of the Chiefs.

Interesting read, Brock. Thanks.

Has anyone heard of this story being confirmed by LJ or anyone close to the situation? FTR, I'm not necessarily doubting the story; just that lots of stuff gets written, that is exaggerated...

Danush · 12-21-2005, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/3610994

Mending fences
I have heard of making peace with a player, but I've never heard of a NFL coach checking in with the player's father first. This happened recently when Kansas City offensive coordinator Al Saunders visited with Penn State assistant coach Larry Johnson, Sr. to talk about his son, the Chiefs' backup running back to Priest Holmes.

You see, Saunders was never a big fan of Larry Johnson, the running back. He preferred Derrick Blaylock as Holmes' replacement and stuck to that judgment until Johnson was forced on him late last season.....

Thanks, Brock.

Mr. Laz · 12-21-2005, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SideWinder

I think it is very likely that Al will retain Gunt if he gets the job.

why would you think that?

Al was offense, gunt was defense
Al wasn't in charge
Al didn't hire him

talk about guilt by association...

milkman · 12-21-2005, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laz

why would you think that?

Al was offense, gunt was defense
Al wasn't in charge
Al didn't hire him

talk about guilt by association...

I think it's very likely because they have worked together for almost half of theirs years in the coaching ranks, and, if memory serves me, they both hold the other in high regard.

Mr. Laz · 12-21-2005, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SideWinder

they both hold the other in high regard.

just curious about how did you reach this conclusion?

Brock · 12-21-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laz

why would you think that?

Al was offense, gunt was defense
Al wasn't in charge
Al didn't hire him

talk about guilt by association...

Because Carl is in charge. The only thing that will change it, IMO, is if there is a lot of competition for Saunders and Carl really wants him.

milkman · 12-21-2005, 11:06 AM

I am only going by memory, but I've read comments from each that implied they had a healthy respect for the other.

I can't supply you with any links, cause I'm not sure where to find them, so take it for what it's worth.

Mr. Laz · 12-21-2005, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SideWinder

I am only going by memory, but I've read comments from each that implied they had a healthy respect for the other.

I can't supply you with any links, cause I'm not sure where to find them, so take it for what it's worth.

thats ok ... just wondering.

i'm sure that the coaches will speak politely of each other out of respect for the position. i don't know that it means Saunders will actually want to hire him.

i don't think it matters ... i doubt saunders gets a shot in KC.

12-20-2005, 10:36 AM
Mr. Kotter Self Ban Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: In some's minds... Casino cash: $3194285	Saunders-haters: Why NOT Al? Why rebuild, when you can reload? Come on, hear me out on this.... I've read here and elsewhere, it's because CP doesn't "like" Saunders; or he has different politics than the rest of the FO. I've read that he's pissed off LJ; and that LJ is CP's boy. I've read Al gets too "cute" with his play calling. I've read he's already been a HC, and failed. While there may be some element of truth to each of those charges....as major reasons to not consider hiring Saunders, I just don't buy any of it. This is football. While the team has suffered as a result of DV's neglect of the defense IMO, Al has done his job extremely well. Saunders has been a big part of some of the most consistently successful offenses in the history of the league. The Chief's offense the last five years has been a joy to watch--90% of the time. If Roaf comes back, filling Shields spot is the only significant task left to do on that side of the ball. Yes, developing a young tackle or two, finding a QBOTF, converting Wilson from TE to FB to replace TRich (or something like that-heh), and signing a quality back up for LJ, are all we would really need to do for the next two or three years on Offense. Very "doable" in my mind. Now, having said that......something dramatic has to be done on the Defensive side of the ball. However, who's to say that with Saunders taking over, that he and CP won't be able to cherry-pick the coaches that are worth keeping, while at the same time hiring new coaches in key areas..... Along with a couple of key additions to the defensive personnel, in the draft and in FA (provided we can clear the cap room) and I think we will have just reloaded, instead of rebuilding. Thoughts, comments, or reactions?
Posts: 46,966

12-20-2005, 08:25 PM	#92
booger Don't Tug on Superman's Cape Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: clear out in the sticks Casino cash: $-2491450	Who would he pick as OC? Shea? No thanks. While he didn't have the talent or the time at Chicago, I say no way to a second chance here. His best asset is his ability to fundimentaly teach QB's. Hell he even wrote a book on it. Joiner? Almost 20 years as a WR coach. Why hasn't he got an offer for a OC job yet? Lack of his own interest or whatever. Verduzco would basically be a hand puppet as well If Saunders chose to call his own plays. Solari would be an excellent choice IF he would be allowed to build it around our running and play action game. Hell, I wouldn't even be upset with Norv Turner with his relationship with Green and the job he did in dallas as an OC. Hell, from Green, AS, and even DV, that's the team we could have resembled according to the early years, '01, '02. A strong running team with weapons at TE and FB, something St. Louie didn't have. Who is the DC? Gunther? It couldn't be any different under Saunders. The best job Gun may have done in recent years is as LB/ass. HC in Tennessee. That's because he had a ton of respect for Fisher and blended in greatly with a good defensive staff there. Hell, his ego was in check. Short of Jeff Fischer coming here, I really don't see any HC who could control Gun like Marty did. I couldn't see a first time defensive minded HC being able to get the best out of Gun basically because of Gunthers ego. He wants to do everything himself. And back to Saunders. Other than continuing the offense, what else does he bring to the table? Could he let an OC like Solari grow and develope his own style to what is a great offense? Could he be more open to drafting skilled players that maybe don't fit the scheme to an exect T but have talent and incorporate them? Would he except a smaller playbook maybe easier for younger players and new commers to learn at a quicker pace? Would he allow for more options of being able to audible for a vet QB like Green? Can he lay off the O some and focus on fixing the problems on special teams and defense? I just don't see it. Somebody tell me how this would not be comparable to Gunther part two? Hell, he might go on to some other team and have success. Somewhere that he would HAVE to adjust to the current roster and maybe realize what works. I just don't have any Idea what type of plan he would have as a HC. I'd rather take a chance on a defensive minded HC. That's what we really need. If we could get someone in the same mindset and do similer things that Lewis has in Cincy and Lovie Smith has in Chicago I would be very satisfied. __________________ 1 Thessalonians 5:3 “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” KJV
Posts: 12,971

12-21-2005, 08:56 AM	#97
milkman Dumbass! Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Leading the Marty bashing Casino cash: $10029395	Why not Al? Two reasons. First, I agree with Parker, this team needs a start fresh in the coaching ranks. Second, Gunt has worked for, or with, Al Saunders for much of his career, serving as SD's D-Line coach when Al was HC, and working on the same staff under Marty for 4 years, and under Dick for 2 years. I think it is very likely that Al will retain Gunt if he gets the job, and Gunt is not a good DC, and needs to go every bit as much as Dick does. __________________
Posts: 70,769

12-21-2005, 11:06 AM	#104
milkman Dumbass! Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Leading the Marty bashing Casino cash: $10029395	I am only going by memory, but I've read comments from each that implied they had a healthy respect for the other. I can't supply you with any links, cause I'm not sure where to find them, so take it for what it's worth. __________________
Posts: 70,769