***Official 2023 STL Cardinals Thread ***

[BigRedChief]

2023 thread. Walker makes the roster. I'll update the rosters and opening day lineup when its official

2023 Opening Day Lineup

Spoiler!

Donovan 2B
Nootbar RF
Goldschmidt 1B
Arenado 3B
Wilson Contreras C
Tyler O'Neill LF
Gorman DH
Jordan Walker RF
Tommy Edman SS

2022 Opening Day roster.

Spoiler!

The Cardinals anticipated 26-player Opening Day roster projects as follows, but will not become official until Thursday, March 30:
PITCHERS (13): Jack Flaherty-RHP, Giovanny Gallegos-RHP, Ryan Helsley-RHP, Jordan Hicks-RHP, Steven Matz-LHP, Miles Mikolas-RHP, Jordan Montgomery-LHP, Packy Naughton-LHP, Andre Pallante-RHP, Chris Stratton-RHP, Zack Thompson-LHP, Drew VerHagen-RHP, and Jake Woodford-RHP;
CATCHERS (2): Willson Contreras and Andrew Knizner;
INFIELDERS (6): Nolan Arenado, Brendan Donovan, Tommy Edman, Paul Goldschmidt, Nolan Gorman and Taylor Motter;
OUTFIELDERS (5): Alec Burleson, Dylan Carlson, Lars Nootbaar, Tyler O’Neill and Jordan Walker;
INJURED LIST (3): Paul DeJong-INF, Wilking Rodríguez-RHP, Adam Wainwright-RHP.

For the new Cardinal fans that joined the Planet since last year, here are some of the historical threads going back to 2006.

Spoiler!

2022 thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/show...8#post16877588
2021 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=337124
2020 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=329273
2019 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=320239
2018 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812
2012 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=254619
etc.
All the way back to 2006 WS
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812

[Mecca]

The Mets pulled Drew Gilbert and Ryan Clifford for Verlander that is the Astros #1 and #4 prospects.

[Mecca]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

That needed to fall into place before Flaherty could get moved.

We're down to Flaherty, E-Rod and some guys that are really unlikely to be traded (Snell, Stroman, Cease).

Teams that are shopping for Cease aren't also shopping for Flaherty. The Padres and Cubs added today - they're not moving those two.

So you have 2 or 3 rental pitchers that might also have the stuff to take the ball in a post-season series. And there are still FAR more than 2-3 teams that need at least one of those.

I think the O's will try to get E-Rod where their changes in the park dimensions can help him play up (it's hard to get one out to LF out there) but if they can't, Flaherty's a really sensible fallback.

There is a report out there that the Orioles made an offer for Cease just a bit ago.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Still have skepticism until/unless they trade or extend Flaherty, but am fairly content with the moves Mozeliak has done so far:

-Moved Cabrera for SOMETHING (even if the return is for guys who may never make it to MLB)
-Decent returns for Montgomery, Stratton, and Hicks, with a potential for 2 young pitchers to be starters in Robberse and Roby as well as a possibility at a useful infielder guy in Saggese
-Shipped DeJong for something to make room for Winn

If Flaherty is traded, I can't really be upset with how the deadline has gone given the team, but what they do in the off-season will make me reconsider my position.

Good lord. Just stop...this while season has been a disaster and the deadline is no different

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Mecca

The Mets pulled Drew Gilbert and Ryan Clifford for Verlander that is the Astros #1 and #4 prospects.

Damn, does Verlander have that much left in the tank?

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother

Good lord. Just stop...this while season has been a disaster and the deadline is no different

I'm not defending Mo for this season (still want him fired), but he's doing just about as best you could ask for him to do at the deadline.

More needs to be done in the off-season, but he's at least doing something instead of holding onto a non-existent dream that this team could contend for anything this year.

I hope you enjoy Nootbar's 14 inch schlong.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Mecca

There is a report out there that the Orioles made an offer for Cease just a bit ago.

They've got the firepower for it. Cowser and DL Hall for Cease would probably turn CHW's head.

[Rams Fan]

Being completely serious here, unless they traded Carlson, TON, Edman, O'Neil, or Gorman, there was a 0 chance in hell they'd get a MLB starting caliber pitcher for 2024.

Gorman shouldn't be traded. If you trade Carlson or TON, you have to acquire another OF or play Burleson and Walker every day (which is terrible).

Doing what the Cardinals are doing at the deadline and getting a non-zero chance at any of the guys becoming something of MLB caliber and under team control is a positive.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

He's provided $85 mil. worth of value on his contract so far, but I guess he's viewed as a liability due to his inconsistency and how great he was at the beginning.

The $ Cardinals gave is probably going to a buyout.

Man, you have GOT to stop slurping up that Miklasz shit.

The fact that the Jays insisted on us sending his buyout money over makes it VERY clear how much 'value' he's contributed on his contract so far. First of, the $9 million win share is absolute and total bullshit for reasons I've discussed ad nauseum around here. A 0 WAR team wins 48 games. You're telling me a team that spends $360 million to get their remaining 40 wins to get to 88 wins and a post-season berth is 'getting their money's worth?'

**** no it isn't. And he was a pre-arb player when he signed his deal so that's a nonsensical analysis anyway. Finally, whatever value a win share truly DOES have (I think $6 million is generous; probably nearer $5 million/per) that value is about half that for a defensive win share, as any contract Andrelton Simmons ever got demonstrated.

But the usual Cardinal mouthepieces would throw out that nonsense about DeJong being a screaming bargain every chance they could get. "Oh well look at how much Dansby Swanson is making??" Who cares? Do the Cubs have Tommy Edman to play GG shortstop for them out there getting hurt in the OF to make room for Paul DeJong? Do they have Brendan Donovan blowing out an elbow from LF so Pauly can play SS like he's managing a Slow-Pitch team?

DeJong has been a negative value player to this team since that deal was signed. He's made them WORSE for being on the roster. Anyone that argues otherwise is selling something. Paul DeJong's been worth $80+ million...FFS. What a joke.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Being completely serious here, unless they traded Carlson, TON, Edman, O'Neil, or Gorman, there was a 0 chance in hell they'd get a MLB starting caliber pitcher for 2024.

Gorman shouldn't be traded. If you trade Carlson or TON, you have to acquire another OF or play Burleson and Walker every day (which is terrible).

Doing what the Cardinals are doing at the deadline and getting a non-zero chance at any of the guys becoming something of MLB caliber and under team control is a positive.

Which is why I have been saying for a couple months that the idea that Moe needs to be on some 'pitching pitching pitching' hunt or that we have a 'logjam of outfielders' is just assinine.

We need another OFer WITHOUT trading Carlson or TON. We don't have a damn centerfielder at all. Noot and O'Neill are both assets in their respective corners but are stretched in CF. Carlson's not really an asset at either corner but at least isn't a liability and definitely shouldn't be in CF.

Moving Flaherty for a true CFer would make my day. Worry about the rest of it later. If that's Edman for Emerson Hancock (a deal I'd love to see made) cool. If that's pumping O'Neill's value over the next 2 months and trading him to clear a spot in LF for Carlson...eh, okay, that's probably fine.

But they can't keep acting like there's a log-jam of outfielders here. There just isn't.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Man, you have GOT to stop slurping up that Miklasz shit.

The fact that the Jays insisted on us sending his buyout money over makes it VERY clear how much 'value' he's contributed on his contract so far. First of, the $9 million win share is absolute and total bullshit for reasons I've discussed ad nauseum around here. A 0 WAR team wins 48 games. You're telling me a team that spends $360 million to get their remaining 40 wins to get to 88 wins and a post-season berth is 'getting their money's worth?'

**** no it isn't. And he was a pre-arb player when he signed his deal so that's a nonsensical analysis anyway. Finally, whatever value a win share truly DOES have (I think $6 million is generous; probably nearer $5 million/per) that value is about half that for a defensive win share, as any contract Andrelton Simmons ever got demonstrated.

But the usual Cardinal mouthepieces would throw out that nonsense about DeJong being a screaming bargain every chance they could get. "Oh well look at how much Dansby Swanson is making??" Who cares? Do the Cubs have Tommy Edman to play GG shortstop for them out there getting hurt in the OF to make room for Paul DeJong? Do they have Brendan Donovan blowing out an elbow from LF so Pauly can play SS like he's managing a Slow-Pitch team?

DeJong has been a negative value player to this team since that deal was signed. He's made them WORSE for being on the roster. Anyone that argues otherwise is selling something. Paul DeJong's been worth $80+ million...FFS. What a joke.

Donovan was playing OF due to how much of a shit show the OF has been (which is an entirely different matter).

Now, back to DeJong, he generated 8.2 bWAR is first 2 years on the contract.

Obviously, he hasn't played at that level since, but to act as if the contract wasn't good value (the $85 mil. number is thrown around and probably exacerbated) is also inaccurate.

I also don't think DeJong made the team worse on the roster this season. The OF playing Walker and Burleson consistently, along with the shit rotation, has.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

We don't have an OFer worth a shit to be honest

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Donovan was playing OF due to how much of a shit show the OF has been (which is an entirely different matter).

Now, back to DeJong, he generated 8.2 bWAR is first 2 years on the contract.

Obviously, he hasn't played at that level since, but to act as if the contract wasn't good value (the $85 mil. number is thrown around and probably exacerbated) is also inaccurate.

I also don't think DeJong made the team worse on the roster this season. The OF playing Walker and Burleson consistently, along with the shit rotation, has.

Edman in CF got Noot hurt trying to dodge him. Then Edman hurt. Then Donovan.

All of that comes from the belief that Paul DeJong should be playing SS. If you don't have DeJong, you aren't playing Edman in CF under any circumstances. And then you don't have that cascade of injuries that has hit us as a result of one of the most ill-considered decisions this organization has made in decades.

Yes, DeJong's presence on the roster has made us worse, WAR be damned.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Man, you have GOT to stop slurping up that Miklasz shit.

The fact that the Jays insisted on us sending his buyout money over makes it VERY clear how much 'value' he's contributed on his contract so far. First of, the $9 million win share is absolute and total bullshit for reasons I've discussed ad nauseum around here. A 0 WAR team wins 48 games. You're telling me a team that spends $360 million to get their remaining 40 wins to get to 88 wins and a post-season berth is 'getting their money's worth?'

**** no it isn't. And he was a pre-arb player when he signed his deal so that's a nonsensical analysis anyway. Finally, whatever value a win share truly DOES have (I think $6 million is generous; probably nearer $5 million/per) that value is about half that for a defensive win share, as any contract Andrelton Simmons ever got demonstrated.

But the usual Cardinal mouthepieces would throw out that nonsense about DeJong being a screaming bargain every chance they could get. "Oh well look at how much Dansby Swanson is making??" Who cares? Do the Cubs have Tommy Edman to play GG shortstop for them out there getting hurt in the OF to make room for Paul DeJong? Do they have Brendan Donovan blowing out an elbow from LF so Pauly can play SS like he's managing a Slow-Pitch team?

DeJong has been a negative value player to this team since that deal was signed. He's made them WORSE for being on the roster. Anyone that argues otherwise is selling something. Paul DeJong's been worth $80+ million...FFS. What a joke.

This is so, so true, and goddamn, it is painful.

[ChiefsCountry]

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother

We don't have an OFer worth a shit to be honest

Your weird obsession of hating Nootbar is strange

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Which is why I have been saying for a couple months that the idea that Moe needs to be on some 'pitching pitching pitching' hunt or that we have a 'logjam of outfielders' is just assinine.

We need another OFer WITHOUT trading Carlson or TON. We don't have a damn centerfielder at all. Noot and O'Neill are both assets in their respective corners but are stretched in CF. Carlson's not really an asset at either corner but at least isn't a liability and definitely shouldn't be in CF.

Moving Flaherty for a true CFer would make my day. Worry about the rest of it later. If that's Edman for Emerson Hancock (a deal I'd love to see made) cool. If that's pumping O'Neill's value over the next 2 months and trading him to clear a spot in LF for Carlson...eh, okay, that's probably fine.

But they can't keep acting like there's a log-jam of outfielders here. There just isn't.

Yeah, the log-jam in the OF is non-existent. It's basically due to having Arenado/Goldschmidt at the corners and Gorman either having to play 3B, 2B, or DH in order to allow Donovan or Edman to play.

Now, I wouldn't trade Goldschmidt or Arenado of them (yet), but Walker isn't an OFer long-term and needs to be brought back to 3B or switch to 1B long-term. I'd let Goldschmidt leave after next season or extend him exclusively to DH and put Walker as a full-time 1B in 2025.

I don't think Burleson can be a consistent player and if he's in the OF, he should be a 5th OFer who plays every once in a while.

I still hold out hope for Carlson, but they've ****ed his confidence and development so bad that I don't think he'll ever be anything more than he's been last year and now.

I'm fine with trading Edman for a SP, but that's about it with regards to anyone on the roster who I think can retrieve a SP that would not necessarily hurt the team in the future that could be expendable.

Now, because of the Montgomery, Hicks, and DeJong trades, the Cardinals have 4 additional pitchers (2 who profile as starters, 1 as a fringe starter or reliever, and a reliever), all under 25 and with multiple years of team control. There is definitely value in that and hopefully at least of them will turn into a positive asset in the rotation or bullpen.