Football To the Herm haters. - Page 8

kcbubb · 07-29-2009, 11:37 AM

I'm tired of all the blame going to Herm. Yes, Herm had his share of blunders but the amount of hate that he gets is ridiculous. The biggest mistake that Herm made was underestimating the impact of Jared Allen. And I did too at the time. In 2007, the Chiefs almost had a top 10 defense despite their terrible offense. We know what happened in 2008. But we are quick to forget the defense of 2007. I'm not saying the Herm was a great coach, but he is not as bad as some here believe.

Just to irritate you, lets take a look at what might have been if Herm had stuck around.

-First the acquisition of Cassell never happens. Herm sticks with Thigpen and Gailey runs the system that worked well in the latter half of the season.

-The switch to the 3-4 never happens and the Chiefs continue to run a 4-3 defense.

-Most likely, no notable free agents are picked up.

-Tony Gonzalez remains with the Chiefs.

-The draft rolls around and Herm takes the safe route as usual and picks the following players:

1. Aaron Curry
2. Everette Brown (Herm likes this pick bc of the desperate need for a pass rusher to replace Jared Allen who was lost in 07 and the success of another small DE Dwight Freeney with the Colts where his role model Tony Dungy coached.)
3. Antione Caldwell (Mal Moore leadership award winner is drafted here) Herm kinda player. And can play all line positions but primarily C or G.
4. Louis Murphy (Herm picks a wide out for the needed depth and Murphy provide some speed.)
5. Jasper Brinkley (Tough middle linebacker probably starts.)
6. Andrew Gardner (RT tackle pushes or replaces McIntosh)
7. Captain Munnerlyn (CB and returner)
7. Ricky Jean-Francois (depth at DT)
7. Ryan Succop K

And to top it off. After speaking with Tony Dungy about Michael Vick, who has been mentoring Vick, Herm trusts Dungy and decides to give Vick a shot at backing up Tyler Thigpen.

Would all of this happened... probably not, but it is interesting to think about what might have been if Herm and Carl would have stayed. Again, I don't think Herm is great and I definitely don't think Carl was good, but I do wonder what might have happened. I do like the draft above much better than our current one, and I do like that we still would have Tony G.

**luv** · 07-29-2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

His claim was that Herm had a chance to rebuild and only won 6 games in 2 seasons.

The truth is, Herm wanted to rebuilt immediately and especially after the first season and Peterson outright refused to listen. And so, in 2008, it was two years too late and the team was in complete disarray. This is pretty much common knowledge right now. And to make matters worse, our GM did ZERO due diligence on the entire coaching staff and hired the two coordinators from within instead of at least looking at outside options.

The truth is, Herm inherited a shitty team and was never given much opportunity to make it his own. I don't know how anyone can claim otherwise, no matter what you think about his coaching style.

So, you're saying Herm doesn't suck? Is that what I'm getting from this? You want him back?

keg in kc · 07-29-2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuicesFlowing

Mike Solari as O.C. was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen.

And that's saying something, with the decades of other bad decisions predating it.

Hammock Parties · 07-29-2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JuicesFlowing

Mike Solari as O.C. was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen.

That was Carl's call.

And really, it wasn't THAT bad of a call. Solari called games OK in 2006 when he had Terry Shea down on the sidelines.

When Herm gutted the offensive staff Solari suddenly hit rock bottom.

chiefzilla1501 · 07-29-2009, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzzsaw

When you look at a head coach, you start with asking yourself "Can this guy win a Championship?". Herman Edwards can't even manage a game clock. The end.

As I've said many times, I never believed Herm did anything to prove that he can win a championship. So I agree with any arguments that he wasn't a good gameday coach and that there was a good reason to let him go.

But people are trying to blame him for poor personnel decisions that were made before he got there. They credit the Vermeil era for his first playoff season, but don't blame the Vermeil era for the poor state the team was left in the years after. And that's ridiculously unfair.

Ralphy Boy · 07-29-2009, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pestilence

Oh...and FWIW.....Herm would have kept Barth and not drafted Succop.

And Will Franklin would have made the Pro Bowl this year.

Mecca · 07-29-2009, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luv

So, you're saying Herm doesn't suck? Is that what I'm getting from this? You want him back?

In theory his approach to building a team was sound, he just didn't implement it properly. Not to mention he is not a good coach when it comes to actual football.

Mecca · 07-29-2009, 05:38 PM

I think most people would acknowledge most of the Chiefs issues of today are the fault of Dick Vermiels old man win right now philosophy. He didn't care about drafting or developing players he was to old to have time for that.

Hell he didn't even seem to want to learn new players names.

**Skip Towne** · 07-29-2009, 05:39 PM

We had several coaches under Peterson. None were even close to as horrendous as Herm. Herm just kept getting worse.

keg in kc · 07-29-2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

I think most people would acknowledge most of the Chiefs issues of today are the fault of Dick Vermiels old man win right now philosophy. He didn't care about drafting or developing players he was to old to have time for that.

Hell he didn't even seem to want to learn new players names.

Yep, and that and Herm being a horrible coach aren't mutually exclusive concepts, any more than admitting that the defensive spiral characterizing Vermeil's era started in 1998.

More than one thing can suck at a time.

chiefzilla1501 · 07-29-2009, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoChiefs

That was Carl's call.

And really, it wasn't THAT bad of a call. Solari called games OK in 2006 when he had Terry Shea down on the sidelines.

When Herm gutted the offensive staff Solari suddenly hit rock bottom.

That's not true. Solari's playcalling was notoriously run-run-pass in 2006 and was the biggest reason we got destroyed against Indy in the playoffs. You're absolutely right that Solari was forced into an offense in 2007 that he wasn't comfortable with, but that again begs the question... if Herm wanted to run a more West Coast offense, why hire a coordinator who likes to move the ball? And if he wanted a Tampa 2, why hire a guy who is clearly not a Cover 2 coach? Maybe Herm begged to keep both Gun and Solari, but I doubt it and even so, the GM is the one who should have ultimate have the final say.

Mecca · 07-29-2009, 05:42 PM

Gunther was here because of Carl, I don't think that one had much of anything to do with Herm.

That whole situation was ****ed up it was just a whole bunch of people not on the same page.

Hammock Parties · 07-29-2009, 05:43 PM

It IS true that it was Carl's call.

Completely true.

chiefzilla1501 · 07-29-2009, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip Towne

We had several coaches under Peterson. None were even close to as horrendous as Herm. Herm just kept getting worse.

Geez.

Gunther inherited a ridiculously talented team leftover from Marty. When Vermeil came in, Peterson bent over backwards for him to give him the right pieces immediately--gave him Roaf, Green, Wiegmann, Priest Holmes, Kennison, etc.... You can't even pretend that their situations going in were remotely similar.

**luv** · 07-29-2009, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

As I've said many times, I never believed Herm did anything to prove that he can win a championship. So I agree with any arguments that he wasn't a good gameday coach and that there was a good reason to let him go.

But people are trying to blame him for poor personnel decisions that were made before he got there. They credit the Vermeil era for his first playoff season, but don't blame the Vermeil era for the poor state the team was left in the years after. And that's ridiculously unfair.

Whew! I was starting to worry about you. Yes, Peterson was a bad GM. That's not the point of the thread though, is it? I mean the guy even talked about the possibility of Vick ending up in KC. WTF? I'm glad you at least don't think Herm is a saint. You were making it sound like he had no blame, just like you're claiming everyone is saying Peterson had no blame. Middle ground people. There's a reason they're both gone.

Otter · 07-29-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Geez.

Gunther inherited a ridiculously talented team leftover from Marty. When Vermeil came in, Peterson bent over backwards for him to give him the right pieces immediately--gave him Roaf, Green, Wiegmann, Priest Holmes, Kennison, etc.... You can't even pretend that their situations going in were remotely similar.

Herm Edwards will never be a head coach in the NFL again. Do you think you're more versed on the subject than every NFL GM out there?

07-29-2009, 11:37 AM
kcbubb Veteran Join Date: Nov 2008 Casino cash: $5166719	To the Herm haters. I'm tired of all the blame going to Herm. Yes, Herm had his share of blunders but the amount of hate that he gets is ridiculous. The biggest mistake that Herm made was underestimating the impact of Jared Allen. And I did too at the time. In 2007, the Chiefs almost had a top 10 defense despite their terrible offense. We know what happened in 2008. But we are quick to forget the defense of 2007. I'm not saying the Herm was a great coach, but he is not as bad as some here believe. Just to irritate you, lets take a look at what might have been if Herm had stuck around. -First the acquisition of Cassell never happens. Herm sticks with Thigpen and Gailey runs the system that worked well in the latter half of the season. -The switch to the 3-4 never happens and the Chiefs continue to run a 4-3 defense. -Most likely, no notable free agents are picked up. -Tony Gonzalez remains with the Chiefs. -The draft rolls around and Herm takes the safe route as usual and picks the following players: 1. Aaron Curry 2. Everette Brown (Herm likes this pick bc of the desperate need for a pass rusher to replace Jared Allen who was lost in 07 and the success of another small DE Dwight Freeney with the Colts where his role model Tony Dungy coached.) 3. Antione Caldwell (Mal Moore leadership award winner is drafted here) Herm kinda player. And can play all line positions but primarily C or G. 4. Louis Murphy (Herm picks a wide out for the needed depth and Murphy provide some speed.) 5. Jasper Brinkley (Tough middle linebacker probably starts.) 6. Andrew Gardner (RT tackle pushes or replaces McIntosh) 7. Captain Munnerlyn (CB and returner) 7. Ricky Jean-Francois (depth at DT) 7. Ryan Succop K And to top it off. After speaking with Tony Dungy about Michael Vick, who has been mentoring Vick, Herm trusts Dungy and decides to give Vick a shot at backing up Tyler Thigpen. Would all of this happened... probably not, but it is interesting to think about what might have been if Herm and Carl would have stayed. Again, I don't think Herm is great and I definitely don't think Carl was good, but I do wonder what might have happened. I do like the draft above much better than our current one, and I do like that we still would have Tony G.
Posts: 2,548

07-29-2009, 05:38 PM	#112
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-492950	I think most people would acknowledge most of the Chiefs issues of today are the fault of Dick Vermiels old man win right now philosophy. He didn't care about drafting or developing players he was to old to have time for that. Hell he didn't even seem to want to learn new players names.
Posts: 115,250

07-29-2009, 05:39 PM	#113
Skip Towne Supporter Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: T-Town Casino cash: $10004900	We had several coaches under Peterson. None were even close to as horrendous as Herm. Herm just kept getting worse.
Posts: 69,689

07-29-2009, 05:42 PM	#116
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-492950	Gunther was here because of Carl, I don't think that one had much of anything to do with Herm. That whole situation was ****ed up it was just a whole bunch of people not on the same page.
Posts: 115,250

07-29-2009, 05:43 PM	#117
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $1030478	It IS true that it was Carl's call. Completely true. __________________ Chiefs game films
Posts: 296,728