Chiefs Jovan Belcher, a gem found in the rough ? - Page 8

royr17 · 02-10-2011, 05:18 PM

http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/nfl/kc/?r=1

ESPN.com's Bill Williamson and Scouts Inc.'s Matt Williamson believe the Chiefs have found a "gem" in ILB Jovan Belcher.

Belcher was primarily a special teamer as an undrafted rookie in 2009. He graduated to full-time starter in 2010, racking up 84 tackles. "He's a heavier guy who is a good banger in the 3-4 defense," Matt Williamson said. "He seems like a hard-nosed guy who has made the best of opportunity." Expect Belcher to remain in the same role next season.

DJ's left nut · 02-11-2011, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

This is what I saw as well, which seems to be in direct contradiction to what people are arguing.

Name an interior linebacker that can consistently throw off a guard.

Remember - the guard gets paid to play football as well. In fact, he gets paid exclusively to move large objects out of the way. His sole purpose on that field is to run into someone and dislodge them from where they want to be. This person will generally weigh in excess of 300 lbs.

There's just not an ILB in the game that will consistently be able to go head up with a guard and 'get off' his block. In a 4-3, the linebacker is much less likely to be facing a guard and is likely dealing with a FB or TE, which is managable for a LBer. But in a 3-4, it's almost always going to be an interior lineman or even a tackle trying to set the edge. That ILB is going to have one hell of a time moving a person that has 50 lbs on him and knows what the play is designed to do.

You're making unreasonable demands of the kid, IMO.

**DaneMcCloud** · 02-11-2011, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Let's not act like it's easy for a linebacker to just throw off a guard here.

But that's the primary role of a TED backer.

**DaneMcCloud** · 02-11-2011, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Name an interior linebacker that can consistently throw off a guard.

Lawrence Timmons and Bart Scott, just to name two.

DJ's left nut · 02-11-2011, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

But that's the primary role of a TED backer.

Only if you also believe that the primary role of the LT is to stonewall a pass-rushing end and pancake him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Lawrence Timmons and Bart Scott, just to name two.

Oh c'mon, I watched Scott get swallowed up several times against the Steelers, Mendenhall had his way with them in that game. And for a guy that's so adept at hurling blockers out of the way, he still only registered 81 tackles.

And Timmons plays in a completely different style of defense than Belcher. In fact, he plays a position far more in line with what DJ is asked to do. He is rarely ever asked to take on guards, so I have a hard time believing you can affirmatively state that he's significantly better at it than Belcher.

Oh, and he kinda has one of the best NTs in football parked in front of him.

To me this just screams of the grass being greener. Bart Scott is not a guard-mauling destroyer of worlds. He gets washed out by interior lineman the same as Lewis did and the same as Belcher did. Sometimes he'll beat them through speed or balance, but then again, sometimes Belcher does the same. The problem is that Belcher rarely gets any help from his interior line so it appears more common that he can't get off his man than it does for a guy like Scott or Timmons.

**DaneMcCloud** · 02-11-2011, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

To me this just screams of the grass being greener.

You can believe whatever you want.

But it's silly to believe that the ILB play doesn't need to upgraded, whether it's a overall improvement Belcher's play or a different player altogether.

And I'm glad you watched one game and determined that Bart Scott isn't a premiere ILB in the NFL. Thanks.

Hammock Parties · 02-11-2011, 01:15 PM

This weight thing is silly.

Does anyone really think the guy holds up butting heads with guards for 16 games if he was 228?

Clearly he can handle the physical side of the position so I don't think his weight is an issue.

What is an issue is that he doesn't have great athleticism. See the play where the whiffed on Kerry Collins.

I think he is a good stopgap as many have said, but we could probably upgrade the position down the line with a mid-round pick.

**ShortRoundChief** · 02-11-2011, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

You can believe whatever you want.

But it's silly to believe that the ILB play doesn't need to upgraded, whether it's a overall improvement Belcher's play or a different player altogether.

And I'm glad you watched one game and determined that Bart Scott isn't a premiere ILB in the NFL. Thanks.

Some people just get it quicker than others.

DJ's left nut · 02-11-2011, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

You can believe whatever you want.

But it's silly to believe that the ILB play doesn't need to upgraded, whether it's a overall improvement Belcher's play or a different player altogether.

And I'm glad you watched one game and determined that Bart Scott isn't a premiere ILB in the NFL. Thanks.

Did I not expressly note that I would have no problem with trading Belcher if he doesn't improve next season (especially if he has a true NT in front of him)?

Why yes, yes I did. Don't go trying to build straw-men or trying to get me to defend arguments I never made. I've stated only that you're applying an unrealistic standard to the Ted position and that Belcher has the attitude and talent to reach a realistic one.

But you're willing to give up on the guy already when there are positions on this team that are clearly in a FAR more dire need of improvement than his, and those positions aren't occupied by young players that still have some upside left to offer.

**DaneMcCloud** · 02-11-2011, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Did I not expressly note that I would have no problem with trading Belcher if he doesn't improve next season (especially if he has a true NT in front of him)?

The main point I've tried to stress throughout this thread is that the Chiefs need to improve the interior of their defense and it would be foolish to pass on anyone that could do so because Belcher's is on the roster. I also believe it would be easier to upgrade the TED position than find a Raji/Ngata type that can immediately step in and upgrade the NT. I think they'll find an upgrade (I mean, that have to, right?) but that doesn't mean it'll solve all of their interior issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

But you're willing to give up on the guy already when there are positions on this team that are clearly in a FAR more dire need of improvement than his, and those positions aren't occupied by young players that still have some upside left to offer.

First off, no where have I stated that I'm "ready to give up". Belcher made a nice leap from season one to season two but he has limited physical talent (mainly speed) and his quickness, strength and instincts need to improve before he can be considered a long term solution. A few others have mentioned that they saw him consistently pushed out of the play by opposing guards, so it's not just me.

Chief Faithful · 02-11-2011, 01:34 PM

Belcher is still a very young assending athletic player that fits the role of thumper in Crennel's defense and who is starting to receive attention around the league. Even if the position could be upgraded it does not seem to be a top 5 in priority. I would much rather see a focus in order of WR, NT, C, T, QB (backup).

DJ's left nut · 02-11-2011, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

The main point I've tried to stress throughout this thread is that the Chiefs need to improve the interior of their defense and it would be foolish to pass on anyone that could do so because Belcher's is on the roster. I also believe it would be easier to upgrade the TED position than find a Raji/Ngata type that can immediately step in and upgrade the NT. I think they'll find an upgrade (I mean, that have to, right?) but that doesn't mean it'll solve all of their interior issues.

Any upgrade at ILB will be marginalized if we have no NT. To quantify it, lets say that Belcher is an 80 ILB and Hawk is a 90, gaining you 10 points. Well the fact that we still don't have a damn NT is going to drag Hawk down to production levels far closer to those achieved by an 80 LB than he would've.

In other words - you're simply patching a hole in the dike and you're doing so fairly ineffectively. In the process, you're eliminating the possibility that Belcher could continue to develop and be one of those guys. If you don't have a true NT in place, the difference in production from Belcher to Hawk is going to be marginal.

Quote:

First off, no where have I stated that I'm "ready to give up". Belcher made a nice leap from season one to season two but he has limited physical talent (mainly speed) and his quickness, strength and instincts need to improve before he can be considered a long term solution. A few others have mentioned that they saw him consistently pushed out of the play by opposing guards, so it's not just me.

And Bart Scott is a burner? You sarcastically noted that I wrote Scott off as an elite ILB but I've done nothing of the sort. I've simply noted that he's not Hercules out there throwing guards around and blowing up every running play. He's also not terribly fast. However, he's still been a good ILB, in fact he's one of the best. This simply my previous position - no ILB, no matter how good they are, simply tosses guards out of the way with abandon. All the while, Scott has done this well with phsycal attributes that aren't terribly dissimilar to Belchers. They're both guys that are going to play around 240 (Belcher will absolutely end up there when he's Scott's age and likely far sooner). They're both guys that run a 40 in the 4.8 range.

What makes Scott so good is the fact that he's fearless, he's mean and he's smart. Belcher has the first 2 covered and the last may well come with time. Recall, Scott wasn't anything until 2005 when he was in his 5th season and was 26 years old. Oh, and he came into the league as an undrafted free agent out of a small college.

If anything, Bart Scott perfectly exemplifies why we shouldn't be so eager to 'upgrade' from Belcher until we truly know what we have in him. There's absolutely nothing, not a single thing, in his performance to date or his physical skill set that would preclude him from becoming exactly the player you have cited as someone that should replace him.

**DaneMcCloud** · 02-11-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Any upgrade at ILB will be marginalized if we have no NT. To quantify it, lets say that Belcher is an 80 ILB and Hawk is a 90, gaining you 10 points. Well the fact that we still don't have a damn NT is going to drag Hawk down to production levels far closer to those achieved by an 80 LB than he would've.

In other words - you're simply patching a hole in the dike and you're doing so fairly ineffectively. In the process, you're eliminating the possibility that Belcher could continue to develop and be one of those guys. If you don't have a true NT in place, the difference in production from Belcher to Hawk is going to be marginal.

No, I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks that NT's like Ngata or Raji grow on trees and that at this point in time, the Chiefs need to upgrade the interior of their defense any way they possibly can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

If anything, Bart Scott perfectly exemplifies why we shouldn't be so eager to 'upgrade' from Belcher until we truly know what we have in him. There's absolutely nothing, not a single thing, in his performance to date or his physical skill set that would preclude him from becoming exactly the player you have cited as someone that should replace him.

If there's an opportunity to upgrade any position on the Chiefs roster, they should absolutely perform their due diligence and make that move. Behind Belcher and DJ there's no one that can step in and play at a high level.

As I said earlier, I find it unlikely the Chiefs will find a player the caliber of Ngata or Raji this offseason, and something has to be done to greatly improve the interior of the front seven.

Pushead2 · 02-11-2011, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClayWhit

What is an issue is that he doesn't have great athleticism. See the play where the whiffed on Kerry Collins.

boy was that bad....

DJ's left nut · 02-11-2011, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

No, I think it's ridiculous that anyone thinks that NT's like Ngata or Raji grow on trees and that at this point in time, the Chiefs need to upgrade the interior of their defense any way they possibly can.

If there's an opportunity to upgrade any position on the Chiefs roster, they should absolutely perform their due diligence and make that move. Behind Belcher and DJ there's no one that can step in and play at a high level.

As I said earlier, I find it unlikely the Chiefs will find a player the caliber of Ngata or Raji this offseason, and something has to be done to greatly improve the interior of the front seven.

This team doesn't need Ngata to greatly improve it's NT situation. Soliai would be a massive upgrade. Franklin would be a great addition. Hell, Powe in the draft would be. Further, there are always under the radar guys out there that can bust out if given a chance. I'm not looking for a perennial pro-bowler (again with the straw-men), I'm simply looking for a NT that is actually built to play NT.

That alone will make a massive difference in the defense and will let us see what we truly have in Belcher. I think we'll be very happy with it.

TheGuardian · 02-11-2011, 02:11 PM

Bart Scott is one of the best inside linebackers in the league now.

Wow.

Bart has a big mouth and a bad temper, which gets him a lot of noise. But his actual play is above average. That's it.

02-10-2011, 05:18 PM
royr17 MVP Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lovin my kids Casino cash: $-1641324	Jovan Belcher, a gem found in the rough ? http://www.rotoworld.com/teams/nfl/kc/?r=1 ESPN.com's Bill Williamson and Scouts Inc.'s Matt Williamson believe the Chiefs have found a "gem" in ILB Jovan Belcher. Belcher was primarily a special teamer as an undrafted rookie in 2009. He graduated to full-time starter in 2010, racking up 84 tackles. "He's a heavier guy who is a good banger in the 3-4 defense," Matt Williamson said. "He seems like a hard-nosed guy who has made the best of opportunity." Expect Belcher to remain in the same role next season.
Posts: 6,243

02-11-2011, 01:15 PM	#111
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $810478	This weight thing is silly. Does anyone really think the guy holds up butting heads with guards for 16 games if he was 228? Clearly he can handle the physical side of the position so I don't think his weight is an issue. What is an issue is that he doesn't have great athleticism. See the play where the whiffed on Kerry Collins. I think he is a good stopgap as many have said, but we could probably upgrade the position down the line with a mid-round pick. __________________ Chiefs game films
Posts: 297,427

02-11-2011, 01:34 PM	#115
Chief Faithful Predicting Chiefs Victory Join Date: Sep 2001 Casino cash: $9966500	Belcher is still a very young assending athletic player that fits the role of thumper in Crennel's defense and who is starting to receive attention around the league. Even if the position could be upgraded it does not seem to be a top 5 in priority. I would much rather see a focus in order of WR, NT, C, T, QB (backup).
Posts: 4,315

02-11-2011, 02:11 PM	#120
TheGuardian MVP Join Date: Mar 2009 Casino cash: $6305299	Bart Scott is one of the best inside linebackers in the league now. Wow. Bart has a big mouth and a bad temper, which gets him a lot of noise. But his actual play is above average. That's it.
Posts: 9,564