Marcus Cooper

[staylor26]

I kind of get the feeling everybody is writing this guy off. I mean it was obvious he regressed considerably towards the end of this season, but there is no reason to think a 6'2" CB with sub 4.5 speed still learning the position won't continue to improve. He's also got two great coaches in Thomas and Harris to develop him. I also think Parker is a solid piece for the future and I can see him ending up as our nickel at some point next season when the inevitable Flowers injury occurs. Need to add another long CB with good speed in the draft and we can possibly be set for the future.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by Pestilence

How much is it though that the Seahawks have the DBs for both. It's one thing to play the prototypical zone defense. It's completely different playing zone with CBs and a safety duo that are quick and fast enough to close the space necessary.

Thomas is a special player, but overall their secondary is not that fast. Slower than KC's. Overall.

Their CB's are not fast. They are big, physical, smart football players. Sherman isn't fast in a relative sense. He's a 4.5 guy, but he's 6-3. Browner ran a 4.6... but he's 6 foot 4. Maxwell ran in the 4.4 range, but he's pretty big for a CB too at 6 feet and 200 pounds.

The point I'm making is that they're not as fast as they look. That's just instincts and intelligence. They react fast and they react properly. Zones typically favor physical secondaries. Typically.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Pestilence

I still think that what this team is desperately missing, outside of a true deep FS, is a 3 down LB. Berry plays in the box so much because they can't rely on the LB opposite DJ to do the things that he needs to do.

This is why I believe that Sutton gets critisized unfairly to some extent.

He really doesn't have the personnel to make the kind of adjustments that many think he needed to make.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by Pestilence

I still think that what this team is desperately missing, outside of a true deep FS, is a 3 down LB. Berry plays in the box so much because they can't rely on the LB opposite DJ to do the things that he needs to do.

Also hurts our run defense in sub packages. I agree entirely.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by milkman

This is why I believe that Sutton gets critisized unfairly to some extent.

He really doesn't have the personnel to make the kind of adjustments that many think he needed to make.

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

Also hurts our run defense in sub packages. I agree entirely.

I'm hoping that they try and upgrade the ILB position through FA. Maybe bring in someone like Pat Angerer. He's had injury issues...but he has the skills to be good.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by milkman

This is why I believe that Sutton gets critisized unfairly to some extent.

He really doesn't have the personnel to make the kind of adjustments that many think he needed to make.

I think my criticisms are fair.

I'm not calling for him to be fired or this or that. I admit openly I have a bias against his style of scheme (I am not nor have I ever been a big fan of schemes built around man coverage and heavy blitzing) so that may have influence.

My opinion is that personnel does not explain it at all. KC went from a top 5 defense to a bottom 5 defense after the bye week. They were allowing just a shade under 30 points per game and 435 yards per game. That includes the game the back-ups played, because it brought DOWN the averages. That's Dick Vermiel career day defense bad, and our defense is vastly more talented than any of those defenses were.

Meanwhile it wouldn't be impossible to point to their early success as somewhat of a mirage due to the competition.

[Skyy God]

Originally Posted by milkman

Someone suggested that Flowers move to FS.
I actually think that's it a damn good idea.
There isn't a player on this defense with his football instints and sound fundamentals.

That's the kind of player that could thrive in the role of a single high safety, and it would decrease the wear on his body.

I'd be cool with that. Sign Browner and move Cooper to nickle.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

The point I'm making is that they're not as fast as they look. That's just instincts and intelligence. They react fast and they react properly. Zones typically favor physical secondaries. Typically.

This, this, and more this.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Pestilence

I'm hoping that they try and upgrade the ILB position through FA. Maybe bring in someone like Pat Angerer. He's had injury issues...but he has the skills to be good.

Just get James Morris in the 6th or 7th round. IMO, he was superior to Pat Angerer.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

I think my criticisms are fair.

I'm not calling for him to be fired or this or that. I admit openly I have a bias against his style of scheme (I am not nor have I ever been a big fan of schemes built around man coverage and heavy blitzing) so that may have influence.

My opinion is that personnel does not explain it at all. KC went from a top 5 defense to a bottom 5 defense after the bye week. They were allowing just a shade under 30 points per game and 435 yards per game. That includes the game the back-ups played, because it brought DOWN the averages. That's Dick Vermiel career day defense bad, and our defense is vastly more talented than any of those defenses were.

Meanwhile it wouldn't be impossible to point to their early success as somewhat of a mirage due to the competition.

Let's look at this.

On the back end we had a rookie (Cooper) learning both technique and scheme on the fly, a veteran (Smith) who has historically struggled in zone, and a free safety who lacks both speed and instinct for the position.


On the front end, you have 2 DEs that provide only slightly beeter pass rush ability than I do, and an ILB who lacks any coverge ability.

That really is a lot of weaknesses to try to adjust for.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by milkman

Let's look at this.

On the back end we had a rookie (Cooper) learning both technique and scheme on the fly, a veteran (Smith) who has historically struggled in zone, and a free safety who lacks both speed and instinct for the position.


On the front end, you have 2 DEs that provide only slightly beeter pass rush ability than I do, and an ILB who lacks any coverge ability.

That really is a lot of weaknesses to try to adjust for.

I don't really understand the point you're making. I never claimed they were without weakness, but if you go position by position do you really think they stack up in a way that excuses that kind of performance?

This defense performed at career day defense levels over the latter half of the season. We don't need to go position by position and compare it to the 2004 squad. You know that D lacked good players at almost every single position. You know this squad is top to bottom far better, even at the weak spots.

The problem isn't that they struggled. It's that they got their shit absolutely pushed in for the most important stretch of the season and they saved the biggest collapse for the biggest moment of the season. In all my years I've never seen a defense make such a dramatic shift from good to one of the worst I've ever seen and it was amazing how the Indy game itself was a microcosm of that transformation. I certainly think Sutton has some culpability in that.

[The Franchise]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

I don't really understand the point you're making. I never claimed they were without weakness, but if you go position by position do you really think they stack up in a way that excuses that kind of performance?

This defense performed at career day defense levels over the latter half of the season. We don't need to go position by position and compare it to the 2004 squad. You know that D lacked good players at almost every single position. You know this squad is top to bottom far better, even at the weak spots.

The problem isn't that they struggled. It's that they got their shit absolutely pushed in for the most important stretch of the season and they saved the biggest collapse for the biggest moment of the season. In all my years I've never seen a defense make such a dramatic shift from good to one of the worst I've ever seen and it was amazing how the Indy game itself was a microcosm of that transformation. I certainly think Sutton has some culpability in that.

No Hali or Houston.
Cooper's inexperience started becoming an issue.
QBs picked on Lewis.

[milkman]

My point is this.

What exactly would you have Sutton do with a unit that has at least 6 players that limit any ability tto make any adjustments?

The one fair criticism, and the thing that pissed me off, is his failure to uuse the depth in the DL that was available.

A fresh Poe for an entire season and the playoffs would have helped ti hide these deficiencies.
A healthy Flowers for the second half of that playoff game would have been a boost.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by milkman

My point is this.

What exactly would you have Sutton do with a unit that has at least 6 players that limit any ability tto make any adjustments?

The one fair criticism, and the thing that pissed me off, is his failure to uuse the depth in the DL that was available.

A fresh Poe for an entire season and the playoffs would have helped ti hide these deficiencies.
A healthy Flowers for the second half of that playoff game would have been a boost.

*sigh* I'm not saying I don't understand their struggling, but being all-time level terrible is crossing the line. I don't know how else to say it. The 2nd half of that season it may as well have been Gunther in the booth, because it looked a lot like that 2004 D in the latter half of the season.

Again, I don't think this is an all or nothing thing like everyone seems to. Blame to go around ect...Sutton has some culpability. Excuses are for losers.

[Jimmya]

Fire Sutton.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

*sigh* I'm not saying I don't understand their struggling, but being all-time level terrible is crossing the line. I don't know how else to say it. The 2nd half of that season it may as well have been Gunther in the booth, because it looked a lot like that 2004 D in the latter half of the season.

Again, I don't think this is an all or nothing thing like everyone seems to. Blame to go around ect...Sutton has some culpability. Excuses are for losers.

Not making excuses.

I don't care enough about Sutton to make excuses.

For all the "Pro Bowl" talent on this defense, there is a lack of quality, depth and versatility.

Sutton had very little to work with.