G.O.A.T.: pick your greatest athlete of all time

[Prison Bitch]

With Tiger’s Masters win today, Twatter is asking if he’s the greatest athlete ever. This poll asks: name you greatest athlete you’ve seen. (So Jim Brown, Babe Ruth, Jesse Owens etc all off the table)

Use whatever criteria you wish. Can only pick one.

[Garcia Bronco]

Carl Lewis

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade

After really studying Wilt Chamberlain's history, I don't know how anyone could legitimately argue it wasn't him. He owns over half of the NBA stats records by himself. They changed the rules of the game because of him. It is said during the 50th Anniversary celebration where they honored the Top 50 players of all time, MJ and Wilt got into a heated argument over who was the best of all time. It went back and forth with neither giving an inch. It was time to go out onto the court and just before they did, Wilt says:

"Keep one thing in mind. They changed the rules of the game to make it harder for me to score. They changed the rules of the game to make it easier for you to score."

MJ did not have a response to that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lt_Chamberlain

Additionally Chamberlain did these things:

At KU he ran a sub 11 second 100 yard dash.

He shot put 56 feet

Triple jumped more than 50 ft

Won the Big 8 High Jump 3 years in a row

In addition to the NBA Hall of Fame, he played professional volleyball and was named to their Hall of Fame.

He beat Jim Brown in a race when he played for the Harlem Globetrotters

He was scheduled to a promotional boxing match with Ali, but Ali backed out after going through a measurements showcase

He also played and excelled in polo, tennis, paddle ball and waterskiing

His raw physical strength was so legendary that Arnold Schwarzenegger used to be in awe of it.

The Kansas City Chiefs drafted him as a Tight End.

People that think he was dominant just because he was tall do not understand his athleticism. He never came out of game and he never fouled out. He lead the League in assists one year because someone criticized him that he couldn't do it. There's lots of videos on Youtube about these things. Watch him run and then say he was dominant just because he was tall!He suffers from the lack of TV coverage in his era and because the NBA began to focus on stats for "the modern game" only.

Its Wilt, and its not really close unless your criteria is number of championships won.

The problem is that he wasn't even the best of his era. That was bill Russell, who owned wilt. There are tons of stat monsters in history who aren't even close to being in the GOAT conversation. Being a great athlete isn't just being the most talented. It's about knowing when and how to use them at the right time. Marino was a hell of a lot more gifted than Montana. Randy moss was a million times more gifted than Jerry Rice. But it's not even close which healthy player I'm taking in their prime. I just don't think wilt had the "I will slit your throat if you get in the way of winning" mentality you seem to see in Jordan or Gretzky.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

One way to idiot-proof it would be to put all local yokels (wilt, mahomes, bo etc) in one quad so it won’t be a bunch of homers.

Yeah, it's a bit of a worry. I know that I'd feel a moral obligation to vote for Mahomes.

[JohnnyHammersticks]

It seemed as brief as a shooting star, but Bo Jackson is hands-down the best ATHLETE I've seen in my lifetime. Otherworldly. He could've done anything.

[Chiefaholic]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

Jordan is more skilled and accomplished IMO, but in terms of raw athletic ability Lebron is a complete freak of nature.

Put Jordan in that body and he'd have won 10 championships.

IMO he wasted two with his failed baseball experiment.

[cripple creek]

larry bird

[BigCatDaddy]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

The problem is that he wasn't even the best of his era. That was bill Russell, who owned wilt. There are tons of stat monsters in history who aren't even close to being in the GOAT conversation. Being a great athlete isn't just being the most talented. It's about knowing when and how to use them at the right time. Marino was a hell of a lot more gifted than Montana. Randy moss was a million times more gifted than Jerry Rice. But it's not even close which healthy player I'm taking in their prime. I just don't think wilt had the "I will slit your throat if you get in the way of winning" mentality you seem to see in Jordan or Gretzky.

Totally agree. A lot of guys are just stat whores. Westbrook is a prime example.

[Great Expectations]

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

Make sure you either list the criteria or, as I did,say it’s undefined

This “poll” wasn't your best effort. Too many great, and probably the best athlete left off the list while guys with great accomplishments, but aren't great athletes were put on the list

Also, how has Pele not been mentioned? More people in the World play competitive soccer than any other sport.

Comparatively not that many people in the world play competitive tennis, hockey, golf etc. While the best athletes in the US are typically basketball players that isn’t the case for the rest of the world.

Finally saying that Bo is getting mentions because of local homerism is dumb. Speed, strength, agility, coordination, instincts, arm strength etc are all elite.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by Chiefaholic

IMO he wasted two with his failed baseball experiment.

Yeah well, there was a lot more to that. I think Jordan was told to take a few years off and lay low while the gambling stuff faded into the background.

One thing about Jordan I hate is the flu game, because it's bullshit. He stayed up all night gambling and was hung over. It was a sleepless hangover game.

That might be MORE impressive.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

The problem is that he wasn't even the best of his era. That was bill Russell, who owned wilt. There are tons of stat monsters in history who aren't even close to being in the GOAT conversation. Being a great athlete isn't just being the most talented. It's about knowing when and how to use them at the right time. Marino was a hell of a lot more gifted than Montana. Randy moss was a million times more gifted than Jerry Rice. But it's not even close which healthy player I'm taking in their prime. I just don't think wilt had the "I will slit your throat if you get in the way of winning" mentality you seem to see in Jordan or Gretzky.

Yes. Randy Moss was more athletic than Jerry Rice. Not as good of a football player, but more athletic.

That's why the whole thing gets a bit muddy. If I say "Westbrook is the best athlete among all the NBA PG's" that doesn't quite mean I think he's the best player.

You're just talking past him at this point as you're defining 'best athlete' differently. You know what he means.

[kccrow]

Originally Posted by Great Expectations

This “poll” wasn't your best effort. Too many great, and probably the best athlete left off the list while guys with great accomplishments, but aren't great athletes were put on the list

Also, how has Pele not been mentioned? More people in the World play competitive soccer than any other sport.

Comparatively not that many people in the world play competitive tennis, hockey, golf etc. While the best athletes in the US are typically basketball players that isn’t the case for the rest of the world.

Finally saying that Bo is getting mentions because of local homerism is dumb. Speed, strength, agility, coordination, instincts, arm strength etc are all elite.

I threw out Lionel Messi as a guy high on my list, so soccer isn't lost in the conversation.

Agree on Bo. I'm not a local and he's the name that immediately popped in my head as the best pure athlete I've seen.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

Yes. Randy Moss was more athletic than Jerry Rice. Not as good of a football player, but more athletic.

That's why the whole thing gets a bit muddy. If I say "Westbrook is the best athlete among all the NBA PG's" that doesn't quite mean I think he's the best player.

You're just talking past him at this point as you're defining 'best athlete' differently. You know what he means.

I know what he means. And I disagree.

If you're talking about Bo Jackson or a Mike Trout... okay, maybe you've got an extraordinary athlete who wasn't blessed with a great team like Jeter or Kobe. Or maybe didn't get enough clutch situations to know how he'd deliver. These guys work hard, good IQ, good leaders and didn't pad their stats to prove their greatness. Ok, I get that.

I just can't in good conscience put a stat padder up there and then use stats as the basis for greatness. Randy Moss was great but took plays off all the time. Russell Westbrook plays hard all the time but has literally been caught putting his team in bad spots by chasing individual accomplishments. Great stats often come at the expense of team success. And great players often sacrifice great stats if it helps their team. Wilt's accomplishments arguably got in the way of being a better team. Sorry, if we're talking pure athletes... Bo is off the charts without hurting his team. I'm taking him every day over Wilt.

[HolyHandgernade]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

The problem is that he wasn't even the best of his era. That was bill Russell, who owned wilt. There are tons of stat monsters in history who aren't even close to being in the GOAT conversation. Being a great athlete isn't just being the most talented. It's about knowing when and how to use them at the right time. Marino was a hell of a lot more gifted than Montana. Randy moss was a million times more gifted than Jerry Rice. But it's not even close which healthy player I'm taking in their prime. I just don't think wilt had the "I will slit your throat if you get in the way of winning" mentality you seem to see in Jordan or Gretzky.

Then you simply have a different criteria for "athlete". I would submit to you if Chamberlain was on the Boston Celtics team, he would have all those titles. There aren't a ton of stat monsters who own half the records that are kept for their particular sport. If you don't believe in Chamberlain's competitiveness, its because you have never bothered to research it. Anybody who knew him, said he wanted to win every time, no matter what it was they were playing. So, especially with team sports, I don't take the number of Championships as much when evaluating the athlete.

Did they change rules of the game to try and level the playing field against you? I mean you can make an argument for Montana among QBs or Rice among WRs. Actually, Rice was an incredible athlete, his off season was the stuff of legend. I would say he was a better athlete than Moss. The "slit your throat to win" is "competitor", not necessarily "athlete". There have been players who make up a lot for athleticism with competitiveness.

Bill Russell was especially known for his rebounding, yet Chamberlain is the one with those records. If they counted blocks and steals, there are some who say Wilt would have a quintuple double one night. Points/rebounds/assists/blocks/steals. That's athletic.

Even your claim that he wasn't better than Russell only holds water if you only look at team results.

http://nbastatslab.com/index.php/201...er-comparison/

Head to head Wilt dominates Bill. Team to team, Bill wins. Celtics had the better collection of players and, most importantly, the better coach. How does that necessarily make Bill the better athlete? Bill didn't build the team. He didn't coach the team. I mean, by this reasoning, why isn't Brady listed as an option? Everyone knows Brady probably would not have won as much without Belichick. Would Jordan without Phil Jackson? Does the coach and scheme really get to determine how good an "athlete" someone is? What did Bo Jackson win? How come he gets a pass?

Now, if your definition of athlete means "more coachable", then I can concede that. But that's not "athletic" to me. Its definitely intelligent, though. Athlete is raw physical skill. I think Jim Thorpe is his competition.

[HolyHandgernade]

The Training Schedule of Jerry Rice
This short excerpt from Talent is Overrated (audiobook) explains Rice’s typical training schedule.

In team workouts he was famous for his hustle; while many receivers would trot back to the quarterback after catching a pass, Rice would sprint to the end zone after each reception. He would typically continue practicing long after the rest of the team had gone home. Most remarkable were his six-days-a-week off-season workouts, which he conducted entirely on his own. Mornings were devoted to cardiovascular work, running a hilly five-mile trail; he would reportedly run ten forty-meter wind sprints up the steepest part. In the afternoons he did equally strenuous weight training. These workouts became legendary as the most demanding in the league, and other players would sometimes join Rice just to see what it was like. Some of them got sick before the day was over.

So, do you value leaping ability and top speed or precision and endurance when evaluating an athlete? That's a fair debate. Whether Rice had stability with Walsh vs the more vagabond life of Moss is not.

[PAChiefsGuy]

Originally Posted by HolyHandgernade

Then you simply have a different criteria for "athlete". I would submit to you if Chamberlain was on the Boston Celtics team, he would have all those titles. There aren't a ton of stat monsters who own half the records that are kept for their particular sport. If you don't believe in Chamberlain's competitiveness, its because you have never bothered to research it. Anybody who knew him, said he wanted to win every time, no matter what it was they were playing. So, especially with team sports, I don't take the number of Championships as much when evaluating the athlete.

Did they change rules of the game to try and level the playing field against you? I mean you can make an argument for Montana among QBs or Rice among WRs. Actually, Rice was an incredible athlete, his off season was the stuff of legend. I would say he was a better athlete than Moss. The "slit your throat to win" is "competitor", not necessarily "athlete". There have been players who make up a lot for athleticism with competitiveness.

Bill Russell was especially known for his rebounding, yet Chamberlain is the one with those records. If they counted blocks and steals, there are some who say Wilt would have a quintuple double one night. Points/rebounds/assists/blocks/steals. That's athletic.

Even your claim that he wasn't better than Russell only holds water if you only look at team results.

http://nbastatslab.com/index.php/201...er-comparison/

Head to head Wilt dominates Bill. Team to team, Bill wins. Celtics had the better collection of players and, most importantly, the better coach. How does that necessarily make Bill the better athlete? Bill didn't build the team. He didn't coach the team. I mean, by this reasoning, why isn't Brady listed as an option? Everyone knows Brady probably would not have won as much without Belichick. Would Jordan without Phil Jackson? Does the coach and scheme really get to determine how good an "athlete" someone is? What did Bo Jackson win? How come he gets a pass?

Now, if your definition of athlete means "more coachable", then I can concede that. But that's not "athletic" to me. Its definitely intelligent, though. Athlete is raw physical skill. I think Jim Thorpe is his competition.

Explain why Russell won 5 MVP awards and Chamberlain 4 if Wilt was so much better then... MVP is an individual award if Wilt was that much better of a player id think he'd win more MVPs than Russell especially when you consider they played in the same era.