America's Most Wanted

[BIG_DADDY]

So I am checking it out tonight and they put on this last story. Two guys drag race and one of them loses control and strikes a women and kills her, both cars take off. Now I know if you drive off and leave somebody like that even if you were not the driver who did it there has to be a pretty serious price to pay however I never expected what came next. He was charged with murder. Charged with murder? WTF? Apparently if you engage in a speed contest and anyone dies you are charged with murder. Is it any wonder people take off and leave people like that, they don't have any choice. Every day I get more disgusted with our legal system, this is just the most thing to blow me away.

[mikey23545]

I think it's immoral to pursue highly dangerous activities you know to be risky to innocent people for your own selfish pleasure.

Hope they catch Atat and he spends many happy years being ass-raped in prison...

[BIG_DADDY]

Originally Posted by jspchief

Ok Big Daddy, how about this...

Getaway drivers for bank robbers, when the robbery resulted in the death of a security guard. What do you think the driver should be charged with?

I know all you people will think I am insane but I think someone should be prosecuted for murder because:

1. They murdered someone.
2. They conspired to murder someone and did irregarless of who pulled the trigger.
3. Hired someone to murder somebody and it went down.
4. They gave the order to kill and it happened.

I don't think people should be guilty by association just because they chose to break another law with said person. In this case he is already facing bank robbery and an assortment of other charges. I also believe there should be an enhancement of the charges because somebody did die but I still think the idiot who pulled the trigger with no regard for someone's life should have to face a worse charge. The one thing I will say for the other side in this particular case is what is the probability that somebody will get killed when said incident went down? Pretty damn high especially with a security guard there. If that's the case I could see you charging both. In the car race case the probability of somebody getting killed is very low. I hear them all the time out here behind my house where they race. We used to do it all the time when I was a kid without anyone getting hurt as well. Where is the personal responsibility for someone that chooses to go to one of these events when something goes wrong? They knew there was some risk when they went out there. What's the difference between that and when somebody goes to a monster truck competition and gets killed. Oh that's right they had a ****ing license. I am sure that eases the pain of the family who lost their loved one. Nobody gets charged with anything much less murder.

You have to be careful once you start implimenting a "He's guilty of everything because he broke the law" type mentality. This is already being taken too far in many areas. Let me give you a quick example. One of my friends was telling me about a guy he knows who was ****ing with his radio when he went into oncoming traffic and got into a head on. People were injured but the other guy had no insurance. Guess what, because the other guy had no insurance the car shouldn't have been there in the first place therefore he was guilty. That's complete BS IMO.

[BIG_DADDY]

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

IF they are separate issues and you don't want to discuss it, why do you keep bringing it up?

I have been trying to discuss both issues seperatly. What you posting is me saying that this type of law encourages people to take off and leave people to die and it does. There were 2 seperate acts of will involved here.

1. He willfully chose to enter in an illegal race. This is not a will of malice intent he just wants to see if he is faster.

2. He chose to leave somebody to potentially die if they had not already. To me this is much worse.

These are two seperate issues that should be addressed legally apart. To say so otherwise would be to say that that there is no legal difference between someone that leaves and someone who stays and tries to help. You know this already you just choose to ignore it.

Murder is killing someone with malicious intent. Manslaughter is killing somebody accidentally. This race was just a race, the death was an accident. There was no malicious intent involved here. To change the law in these cases inparticular is simply wrong. This guy was not more guilty than some guy who drinks himself into the ground and drives anyway and ends up killing somebody. The fact that you want to make it worse is wrong and complete horseshit. It's really quite simple there is either malice intent or not.

DEFINED:

HOMICIDE—The killing of one human being by another, either lawfully or unlawfully. Homicide includes Murder and Manslaughter.

MURDER—The unlawful and unjustified killing of another human being with Malice Aforethought. (Penal Code §187). “Malice Aforethought” is defined as an intention to unlawfully kill a human being.

MANSLAUGHTER—The unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought.

VEHICULAR MANSLAUGHTER—A person who drives a vehicle and unintentionally but unlawfully kills another human being.


I know you support all feel good any means to an end legislation irregardless of whether it turns our legal system into an abortion or not. This case is a prime example. The war on drugs was another. I guess it makes you feel safer in your little world but your not looking at the long term effects.

[DanT]

Originally Posted by mikey23545

I think it's immoral to pursue highly dangerous activities you know to be risky to innocent people for your own selfish pleasure.

Hope they catch Atat and he spends many happy years being ass-raped in prison...

I agree with your first statement and I share your hope that they catch Atat. I do not hope that he be raped in prison.

[BIG_DADDY]

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

Actually, something more extreme happened in Riverside MO about 5 or 6 years ago.

Two drug dealers went to buy drugs from sting Federal Agents. They were both armed, but only one went to the hotel room to buy the drugs. He drew on the Federal agents and they shot him. When they confronted the guy in the car waiting for the deal to go down, he drew on the officers but did not fire when he saw he was outnumbered. He was charged and convicted with the murder of his own partner in crime.

Now, the mandatory "if drugs weren't illegal" crap will come from some on this board, but as BD is want to say, that is a separate issue. The fact is that two men willing to kill other people over profit are either dead or jailed - personally, I find that satisfying for my neighborhood.

This is complete crap and exactly what I was refering to. You support feel good, any means to an end legislation no matter how assinine. Why should you be any different here? To hell with the fact that he didn't kill anyone prosecute him for murder anyway. Never mind the fact that guns got pulled on him first and that would be his natural reaction.

[BIG_DADDY]

Originally Posted by DanT

I think it's immoral to use the threat of a disproportionate sentence to get folks to agree to plea bargains that they wouldn't otherwise take.

I completely agree, great post. Never mind that though, any means to an end.

[KCWolfman]

Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY

This is complete crap and exactly what I was refering to. You support feel good, any means to an end legislation no matter how assinine. Why should you be any different here? To hell with the fact that he didn't kill anyone prosecute him for murder anyway. Never mind the fact that guns got pulled on him first and that would be his natural reaction.

And if it involves the police you automatically take a stance against them. We can deal in false generalities all day.

As I stated (twice on this thread), but you chose to ignore, the legislation is ridiculous. However, the two examples on this thread leave me no pity for their actions. The "guy" was informed they were federal agents, he still drew on them. The one in the hotel room fired at them after he was notified. If you are looking for pity legislation, find better candidates than scum.

[BIG_DADDY]

Originally Posted by Baby Lee

And like I said, if their response to knowing what they're facing, and their response it to continue to race and prepare to flee, instead of stopping racing or finding an approved venue, they're idiots. Fug 'em.

The issue was never whether people like this should be punished. It's an issue of whether they shuld be charged and convicted of crimes with malice when there wasn't any. It's whether this type of legislation makes and abortion of our legal system and creates more problems than it addresses. To me somebody kills someone on purpose is far worse than somebody that accidentally kills someone. Apparently so did all of our law makers when they made a difference between Murder and Manslaughter. Never mind all that though lets just throw all that out the window and start conviction people of murder with intent when that's not the case. Then you expect people to respect the law? Slippery slope.

[KCWolfman]

Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY

I have been trying to discuss both issues seperatly. What you posting is me saying that this type of law encourages people to take off and leave people to die and it does. There were 2 seperate acts of will involved here.

1. He willfully chose to enter in an illegal race. This is not a will of malice intent he just wants to see if he is faster.

2. He chose to leave somebody to potentially die if they had not already. To me this is much worse.

These are two seperate issues that should be addressed legally apart. To say so otherwise would be to say that that there is no legal difference between someone that leaves and someone who stays and tries to help. You know this already you just choose to ignore it.

Murder is killing someone with malicious intent. Manslaughter is killing somebody accidentally. This race was just a race, the death was an accident. There was no malicious intent involved here. To change the law in these cases inparticular is simply wrong. This guy was not more guilty than some guy who drinks himself into the ground and drives anyway and ends up killing somebody. The fact that you want to make it worse is wrong and complete horseshit. It's really quite simple there is either malice intent or not.

DEFINED:

HOMICIDE—The killing of one human being by another, either lawfully or unlawfully. Homicide includes Murder and Manslaughter.

MURDER—The unlawful and unjustified killing of another human being with Malice Aforethought. (Penal Code §187). “Malice Aforethought” is defined as an intention to unlawfully kill a human being.

MANSLAUGHTER—The unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought.

VEHICULAR MANSLAUGHTER—A person who drives a vehicle and unintentionally but unlawfully kills another human being.


I know you support all feel good any means to an end legislation irregardless of whether it turns our legal system into an abortion or not. This case is a prime example. The war on drugs was another. I guess it makes you feel safer in your little world but your not looking at the long term effects.

That is a very long winded way of saying you don't mind addressing the separate issues as long as it is solely on your terms.

[BIG_DADDY]

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

And if it involves the police you automatically take a stance against them. We can deal in false generalities all day.

As I stated (twice on this thread), but you chose to ignore, the legislation is ridiculous. However, the two examples on this thread leave me no pity for their actions. The "guy" was informed they were federal agents, he still drew on them. The one in the hotel room fired at them after he was notified. If you are looking for pity legislation, find better candidates than scum.

Silly me, I think people should be convicted of the crimes they commit instead of whether they are scum as you put it or dirt balls as John Walsh puts it.

[BIG_DADDY]

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

That is a very long winded way of saying you don't mind addressing the separate issues as long as it is solely on your terms.

There were two acts of will here, you refuse to address that because it isn't convenient for you. The law breaks down every other crime like that but you don't want to here/ It doesn't matter anyway. What's the point of trying to have a logical discussion on this issue with someone that wants to convict people based upon how scummy they are instead of whether they really did the crime. Your a scary individual when it comes to your viewpoints on this subject dude.

[KCWolfman]

Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY

Silly me, I think people should be convicted of the crimes they commit instead of whether they are scum as you put it or dirt balls as John Walsh puts it.

Yup, you are right.

Atat should be locked up for welfare fraud, felonious acts of endangerment, and possession with the intent to distribute. He should not be locked up for murder. He should also lose his license for the rest of his life to prevent the situation from occuring again.

I just feel no pity for the asshole running from the law. I guess he wasted all his food stamps on his exotic racing cars and didn't have any left over for lawyers.

[KCWolfman]

Originally Posted by BIG_DADDY

There were two acts of will here, you refuse to address that because it isn't convenient for you. The law breaks down every other crime like that but you don't want to here/ It doesn't matter anyway. What's the point of trying to have a logical discussion on this issue with someone that wants to convict people based upon how scummy they are instead of whether they really did the crime. Your a scary individual when it comes to your viewpoints on this subject dude.

Again, you pull generalities out to create a paper tiger to battle.

Either quote me where I stated he should be locked up because he is scum or stop drawing the ridiculous correlation.

[BIG_DADDY]

Originally Posted by KCWolfman

Yup, you are right.

Atat should be locked up for welfare fraud, felonious acts of endangerment, and possession with the intent to distribute. He should not be locked up for murder. He should also lose his license for the rest of his life to prevent the situation from occuring again.

I just feel no pity for the asshole running from the law. I guess he wasted all his food stamps on his exotic racing cars and didn't have any left over for lawyers.

That was a great post and on this I agree with you mostly, lets just leave it at that.