Scout.com's Mock Draft - 04-03-2009

[The Franchise]

Complete with a trade.

http://profootball.scout.com/2/853317.html

KC receives: #12 and #18

Denver receives: #3

Sanchez goes #1 to the Lions
Monroe goes #2 to the Rams
Stafford goes #3 to the Broncos
Jason Smith goes #4 to the Rams
Jesus Christ goes #5 to the Broncos



The Chiefs get:

#12 - Tyson Jackson, DE, LSU
#18 - Andre Smith, OT, Alabama

[AustinChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Pittsburgh gets the biggest STEAL of this draft. Mendenhall is amazing. I think he will end up the best RB of this entire draft. Mark it down.

And again not a predraft prediction... but I will roll with this one...

Barring injury I think he would have come on strong... and still do.

I will fully admit that right now Johnson and Stewart look better (I still think McFadden and Jones are crap) but damn dude, give Mendenhall more than ONE start before you judge him...

IF he sucks next year OR gets injured right away again... I will concede THIS one.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

And again not a predraft prediction... but I will roll with this one..

LAWL...and I'm reaching?

[AustinChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Pittsburgh gets the biggest STEAL of this draft. Mendenhall is amazing. I think he will end up the best RB of this entire draft. Mark it down.

Mark it down?

Wow you are an arrogant little prick...

ok, "marked"... Mendenhall had HALF a start last year before injury... I am gonna reserve judgement... or are you CERTAIN he sucks because he got injured?

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

Mark it down?

Wow you are an arrogant little prick...

ok, "marked"... Mendenhall had HALF a start last year before injury... I am gonna reserve judgement... or are you CERTAIN he sucks because he got injured?

You were the one who posted it, not me. You said you were right on about all your predictions. You weren't.

I'm sorry if posting things like the Long-Long breakdown has your maize and blue panties in a bunch.

[AustinChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

I provided data for you. If you want more, I suggest you go to ten yard torrents and download the Rams-Dolphins game.

Or, you could go here:

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2008/12/02/e...vs-chris-long/

NO, DATA would show that Long.. compared to other LTs last year had an inordinate amount of help. You have attempted to show ONE side through anectdotal "evidence"...

Not much math, science or debate in your life?

BTW, your assurtion may entirely be correct... but you spouting off about it sure as hell doesn't proove me wrong .. proof requires more than arrogance and a louder voice.

[AustinChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

You were the one who posted it, not me. You said you were right on about all your predictions. You weren't.

I'm sorry if posting things like the Long-Long breakdown has your maize and blue panties in a bunch.

HOW am I wrong on Mendenhall.. HE WAS INJURED... if he continues to be injured.. I was wrong... fair enough?

BUT IT DIDN'T say... Mandenhall will have a better rookie season.. it said he is a steal and I "think" he will be the best of the whole lot...

NOT a draft prediction... but a post draft "wow" that guy was a steal that late and a wishy "I THINK" comment... an "I THINK" comment I stand behind and will wait to see when he gets more than 1/2 a start..

Do you seriously judge him to be worse because he had one injury?

I will say this... if he sucks next year... then you have me here... not exactly the confines of the debate... but the fact is, I did watch a ton of film on him and had the discussion occured before the draft I would have said the same thing...a "steal that late and in my opinion the best back coming out"

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

NO, DATA would show that Long.. compared to other LTs last year had an inordinate amount of help. You have attempted to show ONE side through anectdotal "evidence"...

Not much math science or debate in your life?

BTW, your assurtion may entirely be correct... but you spouting off about it sure as hell doesn't proove me wrong .. proof requires more than arrogance and a louder voice.

I'm sorry, but there is a world of difference between anecdotal evidence and a play-by-play breakdown of every snap two players had against one another, which also includes who helped out Jake Long.

If anyone is displaying arrogance here, it's you, as you continually assume that not providing evidence somehow trumps me actually supporting my claims with evidence.

Sorry that you lost your temper because you were made to look foolish, but that's not my fault.

[AustinChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

I'm sorry, but there is a world of difference between anecdotal evidence and a play-by-play breakdown of every snap two players had against one another, which also includes who helped out Jake Long.

If anyone is displaying arrogance here, it's you, as you continually assume that not providing evidence somehow trumps me actually supporting my claims with evidence.

Sorry that you lost your temper because you were made to look foolish, but that's not my fault.

Ha, not lost my temper.. thanks though..

No, see this is how it works in debate...

if YOU make a statement (which you did) .. YOU have to back up that statement ... showing that he received help would be step 1.. showing that others did not in comparison is step 2... and to be ACCURATE, you should have a broad enough cross section of data....

These are things you learn in debate, science, math... and yes.. now I am being a prick... but I have to get off the BBS in a sec.. so I figured I would go all out!

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

Ha, not lost my temper.. thanks though..

No, see this is how it works in debate...

if YOU make a statement (which you did) .. YOU have to back up that statement ... showing that he received help would be step 1.. showing that others did not in comparison is step 2... and to be ACCURATE, you should have a broad enough cross section of data....

These are things you learn in debate, science, math... and yes.. now I am being a prick... but I have to get off the BBS in a sec.. so I figured I would go all out!

Did you read that post at all?

I'm scoring the Long vs. Long match-up like a fight: Each Dolphins offensive drive is a round, and I'll score using the 10-point must system. I've done this before with Dwight Freeney taking on Jonathan Ogden in 2004 and again in 2005.

Drive 1
With Chris Long lined up to the outside of Jake Long and ready for a speed rush, Jake was called for a false start before the Dolphins' first offensive play. When the Dolphins finally got to run a play, Chris tried to rush to the outside of Jake and never got close to making the tackle as Jake pushed him aside. The Dolphins didn't think Chris was fast enough to make tackles from the backside; when a Ronnie Brown run went around the right end, Jake didn't even bother blocking Chris and Chris was not, in fact, fast enough to track Brown down.

On Chad Pennington's second pass of the game, Chris absolutely dominated Jake. Chris started with an outside speed rush, but when Jake got into good position to stop him, Chris simply grabbed Jake by the shoulder pads, threw him to the ground, and then grabbed Pennington and slammed him to the ground. Pennington (barely) got the pass off, but it was incomplete, and Chris made him pay the price for it. The next time Pennington passed, Jake got help blocking Chris from guard Andy Alleman.

Overall, from the false start to the hit on Pennington, Chris Long absolutely dominated this round.

Score: Chris, 10-7.

Drive 2
Dolphins running back Lousaka Polite got the handoff on the first play of the drive, and Jake opened up a big hole by pushing Chris to the outside. When Pennington dropped back to pass, Jake got a little bit of help on a chip block from tight end Anthony Fasano, but even without Fasano's help, Jake appeared to have Chris under control. On Pennington's next pass Chris tried to spin to the inside and Jake held him in check, and then Chris tried another outside move on the pass after that, and Jake stoned him again.

Chris made a nice play on a handoff to Ronnie Brown, getting off Jake's initial block and taking Brown down after a gain of seven yards. (That play came back because Dolphins offensive lineman Vernon Carey was called for facemasking.) After that, Chris spent a few plays on the sideline. But for the most part, when they went one-on-one, Jake got the better of the battle.

Score: Jake, 10-9.

Drive 3
A three-play drive, with Chris staying on the sideline. Nothing to see here.

Score: 10-10 draw.

Drive 4
The first play was a strange one: Chris came with an outside rush and beat, Jake, forcing Pennington to step up in the pocket. When Pennington did step up in the pocket, he saw that there was nothing but green turf in front of him, so he scampered 16 yards before stepping out of bounds. It was a heads-up play for Pennington and a good play for the Dolphins, but what we're interested in here is the individual battle, and Chris clearly won that play.

On a handoff to Ricky Williams later in the drive, Jake drove Chris back a few yards but then just stopped blocking before the play was over. Both Jake and Chris looked to me like they gave up on a few plays before the whistle blew, which is the type of thing you can get away with when you're in college and you're a lot better than everyone else, but that you can't get away with if you want to be a great NFL player.

After a holding penalty, the Dolphins faced first-and-20 with 49 seconds left before halftime. Chris rushed to the outside and Jake got in his way at first, doing a pretty good job of maintaining the proper position. But as Pennington tried to buy time in the pocket, Chris finally got Jake off balance, knocked him down, and hit Pennington just as Pennington delivered his pass, a seven-yard completion to Fasano. Jake held his pass block for, by my stopwatch, 4.0 seconds -- long enough that on most plays, Chris wouldn't have gotten to Pennington. But the bottom line is that Pennington took a shot to the ribs. That means Jake didn't hold his block long enough.

Score: Chris, 10-8.

Drive 5
On the first play of the second half, Jake was matched up with Chris on a Pennington pass, and both Williams and Alleman came over to help him. Is this a sign that the Dolphins made a halftime adjustment, thinking Jake couldn't handle Chris and they'd need to give him help?

Probably not, because on Pennington's next pass, it was Jake vs. Chris, one-on-one again. Chris got good pressure on Pennington, as did Rams defensive lineman James Hall, and they both hit Pennington as he passed, forcing an incompletion and a three-and-out.

Score: Chris, 10-9.

Drive 6
Jake was one-on-one with Chris again on Pennington's next pass, and although he looked a little clumsy -- losing his balance and going to the ground -- he held up long enough that Pennington had time to throw a beautiful pass along the right sideline for a 37-yard completion to Davone Bess.

On the next two plays, runs by Ronnie Brown, Jake blocked Chris effectively, and when Pennington passed again, Jake held him in check without needing any help. It was a good series for Jake, and it culminated in a Dolphins field goal.

Score: Jake, 10-9.

Drive 7
The Dolphins ran just two plays on this drive, fumbling both times. On the first play, Pennington bobbled the snap, picked it up, tried to run to his left, and was tackled by Chris, who used quick footwork to get by Jake.

On the second play, Pennington pitched the ball to Brown, who passed it to tight end David Martin, who fumbled. Rams linebacker Quinton Culberson picked it up and tried to run, but Jake hustled downfield and tackled him. That was a great, heads-up play by Jake, although hustling downfield to make tackles after fumbles isn't really the first thing you look for in an offensive tackle. Overall, thanks to the tackle on Pennington, I have to give this
round to Chris.

Score: Chris, 10-9.

Drive 8
Again, a three-play drive, with Chris staying on the sideline. Nothing to see here.

Score: 10-10 draw.

Drive 9
Not much action between the two here, either, but when they did go one-on-one, on a Pennington deep pass, Jake held Chris at bay, so we'll give it to Jake.

Score: Jake, 10-9.

Drive 10
The Dolphins' final drive of the game was a long one, on which Miami controlled the ball, held onto its lead and forced St. Louis to use all three timeouts. Jake showed off some good run blocking, but he and Alleman both flinched on a third down (perhaps anticipating a speed rush from Chris, who was lined up on Jake's outside shoulder), giving the Dolphins a costly false start penalty. That's enough to give the final round of this fight to Chris.

Score: Chris, 10-9.

Final score: Chris Long beats Jake Long by score of 97-92.

No, Chris Long didn't record a sack, and yes, he got just one tackle. But he hit Pennington three times and generally looked like a much better pass rusher than Jake Long is a pass blocker. Jake was fine in run blocking, but he still has work to do as a pass blocker, and overall, Chris Long won this battle of highly drafted rookies.

One more time for posterity

[AustinChief]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Did you read that post at all?

Jesus dude.. I have to go.. but we can pick this up again later if you want...

BUT YES. I read your post and again... you aren't grasping the concept...

Show me twenty or thirty game breakdowns (in reality you should provide 2-3 years worth of ALL LTs) and then you have enough data to start making statements that are probably FACT... or at least opinion with enough fact to back it up...

You can't just make a claim... post one set of data and jump up and go "SEE, LOOK AT ME, I'M RIGHT!" That is like me saying Truman was the best president because he didn' do this or that... but NOT showing data whether any OTHER president did this or that or not.
Even that wouldn't be enough to properly trend...

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

Jesus dude.. I have to go.. but we can pick this up again later if you want...

BUT YES. I read your post and again... you aren't grasping the concept...

Show me twenty or thirty game breakdowns (in reality you should provide 2-3 years worth of ALL LTs) and then you have enough data to start making statements that are probably FACT... or at least opinion with enough fact to back it up...

You can't just make a claim... post one set of data and jump up and go "SEE, LOOK AT ME, I'M RIGHT!" That is like me saying Truman was the best president because he didn' do this or that... but NOT showing data whether any OTHER president did this or that or not.
Even that wouldn't be enough to properly trend...

JFC, this is ridiculous. You can say Jake Long was a great pick at 1 because he made a pro bowl and because you claim he has great feet and that is more than sufficient, and if someone challenges you with specific evidence from a game, as well as the reports of scouts that he doesn't, and points out numerous LTs, that we have all watched first hand (see the difference between Roaf and Jordan Black) that have not required and have required help, then they haven't proven enough.

What a preposterous amount of hypocrisy. That's just staggering, and that's not mentioning the obvious proof that you showed in not having read the article, when it precisely points out when, where, and by whom he was helped while you claimed that nothing of the sort was implied or said.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

For the **** of it, we'll drop some more evidence down the pike:

Unfortunately, when Long is on the left side, protecting Pennington, he doesn't look so natural.

Pennington was never sacked on Sunday, but there were a few plays when Long left him vulnerable. On one Pennington pass in the first quarter, Long was at left tackle with Seymour to his inside and Vrabel to his outside. He gave a quick shove to Seymour and then turned toward Vrabel, but it was too late: Vrabel was already past him. Fortunately for the Dolphins, Brown stayed in for pass protection and kept Vrabel from getting to Pennington, with Long eventually coming over to help Brown. I can't say for sure what the Dolphins' protection assignments were on the play, but it looked like Brown bailed Long out by blocking Vrabel when Long should have.

On another pass play, a second-and-12 in the third quarter, Long was at left tackle with Patriots outside linebacker Adalius Thomas to his outside. At the snap, Patriots safety Rodney Harrison blitzed to Long's inside, and Long let him go to block Thomas. That was a mistake; if Long had to let someone go it should have been Thomas, who had a longer route to get to Pennington. Fortunately for the Dolphins, Pennington got his pass off just before Harrison hit him, and it was complete for a 12-yard gain to Williams.

Two plays later Long made a similar mistake: When Thomas looped to the inside to blitz, Long got caught flat-footed and let Thomas go when he should have followed him. But, again, Pennington escaped the pressure and passed for a first down. Any of those plays could have resulted in Pennington getting sacked, but since Pennington got the passes away despite the pressure, no one will remember how Long screwed up.

One of the good things about having a weak-armed quarterback like Pennington is that the Dolphins are going to throw mostly short passes, meaning they don't need the offensive line to hold its blocks quite as long as they would if Pennington were throwing downfield more often. And most of the time, Long at least got in the way of the guy he was pass-blocking for long enough that Pennington could get a short pass away. On the first play of the Dolphins' second offensive series, for instance, Long was matched one-on-one with Vrabel, who blitzed as Pennington dropped back to pass. Vrabel got a fairly good first step and appeared to have Long off balance for a moment, but Long quickly recovered and stayed in front of Vrabel long enough to allow Pennington to get the pass off.

Of all the Patriots who rushed Pennington with Long blocking them, the one who was the most effective was probably defensive end Jarvis Green, who almost disrupted one of Pennington's first quarter passes simply by pushing Long straight back toward Pennington. The knock on Long coming out of college was that he would struggle with speed rushers, as he did with former Ohio State defensive end and current Jets linebacker Vernon Gholston. But on Sunday it was the bull rush that seemed more effective against Long.

When I was at the NFL scouting combine in Indianapolis, I talked to several NFL people who thought Long, a left tackle at Michigan, should move to the right in the NFL. Based on the way he played Sunday, I'd have to concur. He's as good as they come at opening holes in the running game, but I'd be worried if I were a quarterback counting on Long to protect my blind side.

----------------------------------------------------

[Saccopoo]

Originally Posted by AustinChief

ok fair enough. Maybe just Oklahomo football. I hate the Sooners but watched most of their games over the last few years ... and mark my words, he will be an excellent RIGHT tackle somewhere... unless some team is stupid and tries to plug him in at LT in a pass happy offense.

I honestly think he could be "servicable" at LT if you are a run crazy team... but I wouldn't draft him to take the risk...

I hate to say it, but "This."

[RustShack]

If I were on a power rushing team with mauling Olinemen and rarely passed the ball, I'd take big Phil... otherwise, no thanks.

[Saccopoo]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Yeah, and we picked at 20 that year, and he went 5. All things being equal, we could have done a hell of a lot worse than a RT, Ted Ginn, or Okoye at 20. Trading up for them? Not so much.

Furthermore, I'd also like to add that I was far less educated about the draft back then. I'd say the 2006 version of me would probably be far more in line with the Curry praisers and would be high 1st round QB averse. I have no problem admitting the error of my ways. Wasn't my first, won't be my last.

Well, thank Christ that the last two years of internet browsing has educated you enough to be a ****ing draft guru and that now, after such enlightenment, you can talk down to just about everyone regarding the draft. 2006 must have been an awful good year for Missouri wine and the re-education of Hamas in terms of the draft. Hail to you Mr. Mel Kiper Light.