Official 2017 STL Cardinals Thread

[BigRedChief]

My as well get it started. Here's my "Matheny" lineup.....

Fowler CF
Diaz SS
Carpenter 1B
Piscotty RF
Grichuk LF
Molina C
Peralta 3B
Wong 2B
Pitcher

My "Matheny" Starting rotation

Martinez
Reyes
Wainwright
Lynn
Leake

[raybec 4]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I really wish they'd have just traded Carpenter in the off-season.

The guy can't play defense anywhere and trying to hammer him in at 1b is killing us because it leaves absolute shit for us at 3b. Worse still, he's still a friggen headcase when you put him in the 3 hole.

So they're going to have to put his ass back at leadoff to make him a semi-viable player again and in the process they'll need to move Fowler to 2 (where he's not as impactful) and ask Diaz to do too much at 3.

Carpenter's doing more harm than good to this team and that will be the case even if they put him back at leadoff and get him hitting again. Last off-season was a perfect time to trade him, coming off a career year. The acquiring team would still have him for 3 seasons and maybe Mozeliak could've shown some knowledge of when to sell on a player.

This is just such a poorly conceived ballclub. I still can't understand why the hell they didn't blow it apart last year - there's no ceiling here at all.

Mo obviously doesn't understand the fan base. If he would have told everyone last year "Look, the Cubs are in a different stratosphere than we are so we're going to have to reset our club and try to catch them. It will be a couple of seasons but we'll get there." Cards fans would have understood that and we would've kept going to games. Instead of just manning up and doing it he's going to flail around like a fish out of water and cause a 5-7 year .500 streak because he refuses to get rid of bible boy and his band of apostles.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Pasta Giant Meatball

They need 70 wins and an enema in the worst way

The sad thing is that the former has to precede the latter.

When in fact, the latter could head off the former. This isn't a team with no talent, but it's being driven into the gutter by an incompetent field manager and a GM that's having to make decisions based on dealing with that incompetence.

Now I'm not sure how Mozeliak would do removed from the shackles of Matheny - he may still be mediocre. But ultimately he's the guy that hired/retained/extended him so I really don't give a shit. Matheny is a problem of Mozeliak's creation so he has to own him.

This whole thing could've been avoided had the Cardinals done what they should have done in 2012 and hired Francona or what they should have done in 2015 and shit-canned Matheny to hire Maddon.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by raybec 4

Mo obviously doesn't understand the fan base. If he would have told everyone last year "Look, the Cubs are in a different stratosphere than we are so we're going to have to reset our club and try to catch them. It will be a couple of seasons but we'll get there." Cards fans would have understood that and we would've kept going to games. Instead of just manning up and doing it he's going to flail around like a fish out of water and cause a 5-7 year .500 streak because he refuses to get rid of bible boy and his band of apostles.

Nah - he understands them fine. There's no way he doesn't know that.

He uses them as an excuse the same way I'll use my wife as one when I just don't feel like going out for drinks after work. "Ah, I'm sorry guys but the old ball and chain won't let me go out..." - {goes home and works in the shop while drinking beer I already paid for; never asks wife at all - knows she wouldn't have cared}

Mozeliak is unwilling to take risks that might get him fired. So what's he do? Floats this bullshit line to a willing/complicit media about how the fans wouldn't accept a rebuild. He hides behind the fans when the reality is that he doesn't have the chops/stones to commit to a rebuild that might not work. So he can keep treading water for 10 years in an era when teams are trying desperately to avoid being stuck in the middle. So in that environment, where 5 teams every year are openly tanking, it's not hard to win 80 games and say "better things are coming next year".

And that's exactly what he'll do - because having a job is better than not having one and he's unwilling to risk his.

**** him. And Matheny.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

They would just replace him wiith Mabry and call it a day. Good ole boys! No battin gloves!

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Pasta Giant Meatball

They would just replace him wiith Mabry and call it a day. Good ole boys! No battin gloves!

DeWitt is the only thing that can save the organization and I don't think he has the energy for it anymore.

He's arguably the best owner in the history of the franchise but he's seen the top of the mountain. "And when Alexander saw the breadth of his domain he wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer..."

What the **** else does DeWitt have to accomplish at this juncture? He got his new stadium, he got ballpark village. He won 2 championships (with 2 different GMs) and even got another pennant with a different manager so it won't all fall at Tony's feet.

DeWitt has done literally everything there is to do. The team is paid for and generating revenue beyond anything he could've ever imagined. He's going to coast and why shouldn't he? We all would.

But that's going to allow Mozeliak to keep this job until he puts up back to back clunkers. He could win 80-85 games/season for another 20 years and so long as Bill DeWitt is still alive, he'll let him do it. Ownership is the only thing that can snap this organization out of its malaise but it won't.

And just wait - we'll have the second best offer for Luis Robert as well. Because that's where we are as an organization - just happy to be here; hoping to not embarrass ourselves and enjoy those 3 million fans/season with nominal overhead.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

BFIB! (If you ignore what happens when the team has losing seasons)

[raybec 4]

Originally Posted by Pasta Giant Meatball

BFIB! (If you ignore what happens when the team has losing seasons)

What does that mean? Are you insinuating the fan base won't have a reaction to a losing season?

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Originally Posted by raybec 4

What does that mean? Are you insinuating the fan base won't have a reaction to a losing season?

Multiple losing seasons would cause some interesting developments. I mean true losing seasons. Not 80-82.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by Pasta Giant Meatball

Multiple losing seasons would cause some interesting developments. I mean true losing seasons. Not 80-82.

I think one real shit season is going to cause a lot of pissed off fans. Especially considering the state of the Cubs right now.

[raybec 4]

Season is saved boys. Rosie is coming off the DL today.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

I think one real shit season is going to cause a lot of pissed off fans. Especially considering the state of the Cubs right now.

It's a double-edged sword.

All fanbases of idiots and homers. But the Cardinals fanbase has an unusually large% of fans that are deeply invested in the team from the top down; all the way through the system. And those fans have a finely tuned bullshit detector.

Mozeliak has been hiding behind them and in so doing set up a situation where, when things do fall to hell, the fans that would've cared enough to stick around are going to recognize that there's no plan and there's never been one.

Had Mozeliak given this fanbase the credit it deserved and re-tooled around the idea of being at full speed in 2019/2020, they'd have understood and been there for the duration. But instead he's taken the cowards way out and those fans that would've supported him for losing with an eye on the future will be at the front of the mob and the loudest ones calling for his head when his rudderless direction has the Cards lost in the wilderness.

Mozeliak ****ed up so very badly. He took all the advantages this team has and used them against himself. He took fan support as a reason to retain Mike Matheny instead of getting rid of him when he had an opening. He took sustained success as an excuse to do nothing rather than utilize the goodwill to ride out a rebuild and carry forward to the next wave of success.

He was lazy, shortsighted and arrogant. He should be on a damn hot seat right now but he won't be.

[raybec 4]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

It's a double-edged sword.

All fanbases of idiots and homers. But the Cardinals fanbase has an unusually large% of fans that are deeply invested in the team from the top down; all the way through the system. And those fans have a finely tuned bullshit detector.

Mozeliak has been hiding behind them and in so doing set up a situation where, when things do fall to hell, the fans that would've cared enough to stick around are going to recognize that there's no plan and there's never been one.

Had Mozeliak given this fanbase the credit it deserved and re-tooled around the idea of being at full speed in 2019/2020, they'd have understood and been there for the duration. But instead he's taken the cowards way out and those fans that would've supported him for losing with an eye on the future will be at the front of the mob and the loudest ones calling for his head when his rudderless direction has the Cards lost in the wilderness.

Mozeliak ****ed up so very badly. He took all the advantages this team has and used them against himself. He took fan support as a reason to retain Mike Matheny instead of getting rid of him when he had an opening. He took sustained success as an excuse to do nothing rather than utilize the goodwill to ride out a rebuild and carry forward to the next wave of success.

He was lazy, shortsighted and arrogant. He should be on a damn hot seat right now but he won't be.

I can't really point to much Mo has done and think to myself, that was a great move. He has a lot of average/below average moves surrounded by a few WTF moments.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by raybec 4

I can't really point to much Mo has done and think to myself, that was a great move. He has a lot of average/below average moves surrounded by a few WTF moments.

The Lackey move was genuinely outstanding and I was PISSED when he made it. Gotta give him a lot of credit there.

Edmonds for Freese turned out extremely well also.

Insisting on Miller instead of Martinez in the Heyward package is a nice move; most in baseball would've seen Miller as the more valuable commodity at the time.

Beyond that...Cox for Mujica, I guess? There are probably a few others I'm forgetting that were solid if unspectacular. He got Holliday for a hell of a lot less than Oakland gave up to originally acquire him for Colorado, so I guess that's a win.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

The problem is as long as they hover near .500 and churn out lame as **** dual bobblehead nights (for Dan and Al to jerkoff to), the fans will keep on coming and the stooges are safe.

[raybec 4]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

The Lackey move was genuinely outstanding and I was PISSED when he made it. Gotta give him a lot of credit there.

Edmonds for Freese turned out extremely well also.

Insisting on Miller instead of Martinez in the Heyward package is a nice move; most in baseball would've seen Miller as the more valuable commodity at the time.

Beyond that...Cox for Mujica, I guess? There are probably a few others I'm forgetting that were solid if unspectacular. He got Holliday for a hell of a lot less than Oakland gave up to originally acquire him for Colorado, so I guess that's a win.

Yeah, that was a bit of hyperbole on my part. I still think we should have kept Shelby and passed on a rental of Heyward. But Lackey is his best move by far. I wish we would've been able to hold on to him.