The mystery of our fascination with Outside Zone

[DJ's left nut]

So I'll gladly listen to anyone that wants to correct me on this one, but it sure looks to me like the Chiefs STILL prefer an outside zone running system and for the life of me I cannot figure out why.

There's an article in the Athletic that really sums up my confusing in a lot of ways. It's about the Lions dedication to a power gap scheme. Here's a little blurb that kinda makes my point for me:

The popularity of the outside zone system that stems from Kyle Shanahan and Sean McVay has led to more teams employing a Vic Fangio-style defense, which asks defensive linemen to play slower and take on a gap-and-a-half, rather than fly upfield and play only one gap. Theoretically, the defense can live in light boxes and invest more personnel in defending the pass as long as its front can slow down ball carriers long enough for the secondary to help. This works well against zone runs because offensive linemen move laterally, but the Lions like to run right into the teeth of defenses with authority. They want their offensive line, one of the best in the league, firing off vertically and punishing defenders.

https://theathletic.com/3613162/2022...e-ben-johnson/


WHY IS THIS NOT OUR RUNNING GAME!?!?! Teams have been doing that Fangio shit to us for 2+ years now. They're living in light boxes and when we run the ball we're leading with our chins and running this damn outside zone crap that A) Doesn't take advantage of our power blockers as well and B) Lets the defense do what it wants to do, which is use speed and move laterally to race us to the sidelines and seal off big gains. It can essentially run Nickel formations and still manage that.

Maybe they're doing more gap running than I realize or maybe I'm just too damn stupid to see the bigger picture of what they're trying to accomplish.

But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more. When we run, it should absolutely be a gap scheme designed to just maul guys rather than this outside zone crap that just does them a massive favor while not taking advantage of our OL's greatest strengths.

[Molitoth]

I get Mahomes is our QB and you want it in his hands every play... but Andy has shown that it really doesn't matter what scheme we use, and how successful we are with it... he won't stick with it.

[Buehler445]

Count me in the too dumb to know group. I'm a ****ing moron.

I'd like to see it, at least some times. Not all the time. Just to **** someone in the ass on a drive.

If Reid were to hire me as a strategic consultant, which he would never do because ****ing moron, but if he did, here's what I'd suggest.

Run the first drive as you normally would hopefully it ends in 7. Rape away.

Next drive, line up in the I and turn the dial to **** you. If they can't stop it jam it down their throat and go get your 7. If they are filling gaps then unleash Mahomes on PA.

Then after that, you can work in some plays depending on effectiveness.

But if you make them gameplan for both, that will mean less time on the shit you want to run. The matchups you can exploit. All of it. And if they roll you out of it, hat tip, plus you know what they're going to do if you need to run to close the game.

I always respected the hell out of Belicheat and his cheating ****ing ass for switching from 5 wide to ****ing power to take advantage of teams that couldn't stop the run. **** all things Brother****ing Cheatriot ****bag, but I respected the hell out of it.

Now I know we don't have Dante Scarnecia, so we probably couldn't be as effective as they were, but we've got some horses and I'd like to see it. I get all hoosey goosey when Mahomes goes under center.

I fully recognize that a change in blocking scheme is no small ask. But getting it done will certainly help in attacking light fronts, but also closing the games.

/moron

[kcclone]

Vic Fangio pwned Andy Reid. Everyone knows that.

[xztop123]

I like these kind of posts.

Btw off-topic but we’re running a boat lot of cover 4 and zone defense in general. Maybe we are copying how other teams stopped mahomes- not sure.

I doubt we’d run that defense against a weak qb but the chargers game was from an eye test like 70 + % zone d

[xztop123]

Originally Posted by Dante84

Is this to help support the passing attack? If the D-linemen are slower to push into the backfield, I'd imagine this buys more time for the QB to scan, and more time for the WR's to get deeper downfield.

There's a counter-reaction to everything, sure, but I'm wondering if this is the logic.

This is what I was thinking. Especially with mahomes tendency to drift backwards.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Dante84

Is this to help support the passing attack? If the D-linemen are slower to push into the backfield, I'd imagine this buys more time for the QB to scan, and more time for the WR's to get deeper downfield.

There's a counter-reaction to everything, sure, but I'm wondering if this is the logic.

I don't think t helps, though. Especially when it allows DCs to stay in light boxes with smaller/faster personnel groups and not have run defense be a liability because they can use that speed to flow to the edges and cut off those outside runs.

If you want to help the passing attack, get teams worried about getting blasted up the interior so they put a Nnadi sort of guy in the middle or a Ragland sort at LB.

As it stands you can easily run a heavy nickel against us as a base defense. And you will give more reps to a guy like say Dre'Mont Jones on the interior vs. a Nnadi/Pennel sort.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

Count me in the too dumb to know group. I'm a ****ing moron.

I'd like to see it, at least some times. Not all the time. Just to **** someone in the ass on a drive.

If Reid were to hire me as a strategic consultant, which he would never do because ****ing moron, but if he did, here's what I'd suggest.

Run the first drive as you normally would hopefully it ends in 7. Rape away.

Next drive, line up in the I and turn the dial to **** you. If they can't stop it jam it down their throat and go get your 7. If they are filling gaps then unleash Mahomes on PA.

Then after that, you can work in some plays depending on effectiveness.

But if you make them gameplan for both, that will mean less time on the shit you want to run. The matchups you can exploit. All of it. And if they roll you out of it, hat tip, plus you know what they're going to do if you need to run to close the game.

I think Tim Grunhardt is a ****ing idiot and I can't stand him. But he once said something EXTREMELY insightful: The most valuable commodity in the NFL is time.

You only get so much practice time. There just aren't enough hours for that sort of radical shift in approach, IMO. You don't have the practice time for 2 completely different installs.

But I don't see how that would interfere with a shift from a zone scheme to a gap scheme over the course of an off-season.

But like you said - guy didn't ask me. I just don't have a good answer for it - Andy is a DAMN smart guy and obviously knows more about football than idea. Which makes it all the stranger that this appears as self-evident to me as it does.

If I think it's this obvious and yet Andy Reid isn't doing it, it must be because I'm reeruned because I know he isn't.

But try as I might, I can't figure it out.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Clyde has over 7 YPC...

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother

Clyde has over 7 YPC...

Just like last seas....oh wait. Our running game was miserable last year. Oh, and nearly half his yards this season came on a single run that was simple inside trap from under center.

I don't think you're making as strong a point as you think you are...

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by xztop123

This is what I was thinking. Especially with mahomes tendency to drift backwards.

I wonder if it's strictly a question of timing.

When you're operating from shotgun as much as we do, perhaps it's difficult for OL to time their blocks in a way that the holes are opening inside just as the runner is getting there.

Maybe by emphasizing outside zone the timing works better and the RB can go sideways with the play as the blocks are developing then get downfield as a hole opens.

There has to be something that's making it a necessity for the passing game to function well somehow.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Just like last seas....oh wait. Our running game was miserable last year. Oh, and nearly half his yards this season came on a single run that was simple inside trap from under center.

I don't think you're making as strong a point as you think you are...

The team is averaging 5 YPC as a whole so not sure what there is to cry about other than the occasional Andy special run play that blows up from time to timem

[Coochie liquor]

Originally Posted by Molitoth

I get Mahomes is our QB and you want it in his hands every play... but Andy has shown that it really doesn't matter what scheme we use, and how successful we are with it... he won't stick with it.

I remember him running it down the Tits throats in that AFCCG.

1st & 10 at KC 27
(6:58 - 3rd) Dam.Williams right guard to KC 33 for 6 yards (R.Evans; K.Correa).
2nd & 4 at KC 33
(6:25 - 3rd) (Shotgun) Dam.Williams right tackle to KC 36 for 3 yards (K.Correa; K.Vaccaro).
3rd & 1 at KC 36
(5:47 - 3rd) Dam.Williams left guard to KC 41 for 5 yards (L.Ryan).
1st & 10 at KC 41
(5:09 - 3rd) (Shotgun) Dam.Williams up the middle to KC 42 for 1 yard (H.Landry).
2nd & 9 at KC 42
(4:29 - 3rd) (Shotgun) P.Mahomes pass short left to S.Watkins to KC 49 for 7 yards (T.Brock).
3rd & 2 at KC 49
(3:49 - 3rd) (Shotgun) P.Mahomes scrambles left end ran ob at TEN 47 for 4 yards (K.Byard).
1st & 10 at TEN 47
(3:18 - 3rd) T.Hill right end to TEN 40 for 7 yards (J.Brown).
2nd & 3 at TEN 40
(2:31 - 3rd) (Shotgun) D.Thompson right end to TEN 33 for 7 yards (K.Byard).
1st & 10 at TEN 33
(1:46 - 3rd) (Shotgun) P.Mahomes scrambles left end ran ob at TEN 22 for 11 yards (L.Ryan).
1st & 10 at TEN 22
(1:13 - 3rd) Dam.Williams right end ran ob at TEN 18 for 4 yards (A.Jackson).
2nd & 6 at TEN 18
(0:38 - 3rd) (Shotgun) P.Mahomes pass short right to T.Hill pushed ob at TEN 3 for 15 yards (W.Woodyard).
END QUARTER 3
1st & Goal at TEN 3
(15:00 - 4th) P.Mahomes pass incomplete short right to A.Sherman.
2nd & Goal at TEN 3
(14:50 - 4th) Damien Williams 3 Yard Rush H.Butker extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Winchester, Holder-D.Colquitt.

I’d love to see more if that. Obviously don’t want to take it out of Pats hands. But killimg teams and clock with the run game is good as well.

[BWillie]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

So I'll gladly listen to anyone that wants to correct me on this one, but it sure looks to me like the Chiefs STILL prefer an outside zone running system and for the life of me I cannot figure out why.

There's an article in the Athletic that really sums up my confusing in a lot of ways. It's about the Lions dedication to a power gap scheme. Here's a little blurb that kinda makes my point for me:



https://theathletic.com/3613162/2022...e-ben-johnson/


WHY IS THIS NOT OUR RUNNING GAME!?!?! Teams have been doing that Fangio shit to us for 2+ years now. They're living in light boxes and when we run the ball we're leading with our chins and running this damn outside zone crap that A) Doesn't take advantage of our power blockers as well and B) Lets the defense do what it wants to do, which is use speed and move laterally to race us to the sidelines and seal off big gains. It can essentially run Nickel formations and still manage that.

Maybe they're doing more gap running than I realize or maybe I'm just too damn stupid to see the bigger picture of what they're trying to accomplish.

But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more. When we run, it should absolutely be a gap scheme designed to just maul guys rather than this outside zone crap that just does them a massive favor while not taking advantage of our OL's greatest strengths.

I may have been persuaded but then you brought up....VIC FANGIO.

[BWillie]

Originally Posted by Dunerdr

I just want us to go power and make teams with light boxs pay sometimes. But we never really do.

We should on short yardage...alot. But ya we don't usually

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother

The team is averaging 5 YPC as a whole so not sure what there is to cry about other than the occasional Andy special run play that blows up from time to timem

Plenty of threads to talk about bodily functions or personal finance if you've got something better to do than discuss football.

Nobody's crying about anything. It's a conversation about a fairly prominent component of one of the more diverse offensive teams in the game. I'm sure there's a baseball or Bronco's thread you can dive into if you find that more your speed.