Evaluate the Defense Game #1

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by staylor26

The Pats didn’t “destroy” us last year, but you’re already conceding that they’re going to this year when we got better on both sides of the ball?

What a bunch of ****ing pussies on here.

I have a concern.

Offensively we're just ahead of the game. We are setting the trends and teams are trying to catch us. Andy is the top of the game and it's a horserace to see who's in second.

BB is his defensive doppleganger. He's the defensive equivalent of Andy and he sets trends out there that nobody else can seem to duplicate (just as Andy does on O).

So when the Patriots do a thing that seems 180 degrees different than what we're doing on defense, that's worrisome. And right now the Patriots are largely eschewing the idea that pass-rush is king in the modern NFL and nobody can cover long enough to matter anyway with these rules. They're spending money on DBs and making their coverage work. That Steelers game wasn't a display of a fire-breathing pass-rush scaring off Big Ben - it was a secondary just blanketing guys.

Is he right? Should we have been building our defense around our defensive backfield rather than plowing all these assets into the DL? Should we have have stayed put at 1, taken Ya-Sin, even peddled Jones for another CB and just hurled assets at the secondary while trying to scheme pressure?

My gut says no. My gut says we got it right. But my gut's resume is a shitload less impressive than Bill Belichick's brain.

My concern don't mean shit, in the end. This team is unquestionably pot-committed to a plan built predominantly around it's DL and either it works or we lose. But you have to get a little skittish when you see probably the best defensive mind in history doing the opposite of what you're doing.

[staylor26]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I have a concern.

Offensively we're just ahead of the game. We are setting the trends and teams are trying to catch us. Andy is the top of the game and it's a horserace to see who's in second.

BB is his defensive doppleganger. He's the defensive equivalent of Andy and he sets trends out there that nobody else can seem to duplicate (just as Andy does on O).

So when the Patriots do a thing that seems 180 degrees different than what we're doing on defense, that's worrisome. And right now the Patriots are largely eschewing the idea that pass-rush is king in the modern NFL and nobody can cover long enough to matter anyway with these rules. They're spending money on DBs and making their coverage work. That Steelers game wasn't a display of a fire-breathing pass-rush scaring off Big Ben - it was a secondary just blanketing guys.

Is he right? Should we have been building our defense around our defensive backfield rather than plowing all these assets into the DL? Should we have have stayed put at 1, taken Ya-Sin, even peddled Jones for another CB and just hurled assets at the secondary while trying to scheme pressure?

My gut says no. My gut says we got it right. But my gut's resume is a shitload less impressive than Bill Belichick's brain.

My concern don't mean shit, in the end. This team is unquestionably pot-committed to a plan built predominantly around it's DL and either it works or we lose. But you have to get a little skittish when you see probably the best defensive mind in history doing the opposite of what you're doing.

That’s certainly a valid concern.

I know you’re against the idea of trading for Howard (as am I), but what about Peterson assuming we can get him for a day 2 pick?

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by staylor26

That’s certainly a valid concern.

I know you’re against the idea of trading for Howard (as am I), but what about Peterson assuming we can get him for a day 2 pick?

In.

I don't think Jones is coming back. That looks like a tag and trade waiting to happen. So his salary slot can go into Peterson and some lower pedigree reinforcements (and possibly retaining Breeland) long-term. Meanwhile in the short term you have the guy you need for the stretch run and playoffs AND Chris Jones. You've improved the near term without substantially altering the long term as I think Jones is a fait accompli at this point.

I'd give up a 2 for that. I'd sure as shit hate doing it given that it's now the 49ers 2 (seriously Frank Clark - be better), but I'm there. And we get a little cap relief to boot because of his suspension.

I was against Peterson because I felt like you needed to keep the books clean to retain Jones. But I'm feeling more and more like Jones is going to walk and if that's the case, go ahead and use some of that dry powder to up your shot this year and you're in the same position next year as you'd have otherwise been (only with a little more stability at CB).

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

In.



I don't think Jones is coming back. That looks like a tag and trade waiting to happen. So his salary slot can go into Peterson and some lower pedigree reinforcements (and possibly retaining Breeland) long-term. Meanwhile in the short term you have the guy you need for the stretch run and playoffs AND Chris Jones. You've improved the near term without substantially altering the long term as I think Jones is a fait accompli at this point.



I'd give up a 2 for that. I'd sure as shit hate doing it given that it's now the 49ers 2 (seriously Frank Clark - be better), but I'm there. And we get a little cap relief to boot because of his suspension.



I was against Peterson because I felt like you needed to keep the books clean to retain Jones. But I'm feeling more and more like Jones is going to walk and if that's the case, go ahead and use some of that dry powder to up your shot this year and you're in the same position next year as you'd have otherwise been (only with a little more stability at CB).

So Jones becomes a tag and trade to recoup draft capital then, right?

[MightyMouse]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

In.

I don't think Jones is coming back. That looks like a tag and trade waiting to happen. So his salary slot can go into Peterson and some lower pedigree reinforcements (and possibly retaining Breeland) long-term. Meanwhile in the short term you have the guy you need for the stretch run and playoffs AND Chris Jones. You've improved the near term without substantially altering the long term as I think Jones is a fait accompli at this point.

I'd give up a 2 for that. I'd sure as shit hate doing it given that it's now the 49ers 2 (seriously Frank Clark - be better), but I'm there. And we get a little cap relief to boot because of his suspension.

I was against Peterson because I felt like you needed to keep the books clean to retain Jones. But I'm feeling more and more like Jones is going to walk and if that's the case, go ahead and use some of that dry powder to up your shot this year and you're in the same position next year as you'd have otherwise been (only with a little more stability at CB).

Agree I don’t see him back either. Amazing dude and locker room presence. Very talented but his impact in this scheme may not be enough for the cost to keep him. I think as he gets more comfortable he will be good, I’m not questioning his talent at all just don’t think it’s a wise investment in the long run.

On a bit of a side note. Spag can’t bring pressure much right now if he has to worry about Ward getting burnt or miscommunication. When things get cleaned up in the back, especially an addition of say a PP, then you can afford to attack more.
I think we will see more of the same against the raiders. Carr won’t hold the ball long. We won’t risk giving up the big play because Reid knows the offense can score, how many teams can keep marching the ball down the field one first down at a down and keep up with the chiefs O?

[IUsedToBeATightEnd]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I have a concern.

Offensively we're just ahead of the game. We are setting the trends and teams are trying to catch us. Andy is the top of the game and it's a horserace to see who's in second.

BB is his defensive doppleganger. He's the defensive equivalent of Andy and he sets trends out there that nobody else can seem to duplicate (just as Andy does on O).

So when the Patriots do a thing that seems 180 degrees different than what we're doing on defense, that's worrisome. And right now the Patriots are largely eschewing the idea that pass-rush is king in the modern NFL and nobody can cover long enough to matter anyway with these rules. They're spending money on DBs and making their coverage work. That Steelers game wasn't a display of a fire-breathing pass-rush scaring off Big Ben - it was a secondary just blanketing guys.

Is he right? Should we have been building our defense around our defensive backfield rather than plowing all these assets into the DL? Should we have have stayed put at 1, taken Ya-Sin, even peddled Jones for another CB and just hurled assets at the secondary while trying to scheme pressure?

My gut says no. My gut says we got it right. But my gut's resume is a shitload less impressive than Bill Belichick's brain.

My concern don't mean shit, in the end. This team is unquestionably pot-committed to a plan built predominantly around it's DL and either it works or we lose. But you have to get a little skittish when you see probably the best defensive mind in history doing the opposite of what you're doing.

Very interesting take, but looking at what the Pats are doing compared to us can be misleading when taken out of context.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

So when the Patriots do a thing that seems 180 degrees different than what we're doing on defense, that's worrisome.

We are basically rebuilding the defense from scratch which the Pats ain't doing. Its a completely different scenario. The Pats run defense has already proven to be reliable, our was not.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

And right now the Patriots are largely eschewing the idea that pass-rush is king in the modern NFL and nobody can cover long enough to matter anyway with these rules. They're spending money on DBs and making their coverage work.

They can invest on DB's because they don't need improve on the rest of the defense, again different scenario than the chiefs.
The Pats pass rush never was particularly aggressive, even against us last year. It was basically aimed at keeping Mahomes in the pocket, while putting pressure up the middle, more than sending the outside guys straight for his head.
Too early to say after one game but I see some similarities in this regard with our d-line.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

That Steelers game wasn't a display of a fire-breathing pass-rush scaring off Big Ben - it was a secondary just blanketing guys.

Blanketing Big Ben is not the same as blanketing Mahomes and Andy. This may work with some teams, could be total disaster with others.
If you think about it, this is basically what they did to us on the AFCCG, but it worked only to some extent.
Mahomes will always find a way to deliver when given enough time. I am pretty sure we will have more of a hard time against teams with dominant pass rushers than top ranked secondaries.

All that being said it is obvious we need to improve our secondary, but Rome was not built in one day, and I am confident we are on the right track to build a top ranked defense in one year or two.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I have a concern.

Offensively we're just ahead of the game. We are setting the trends and teams are trying to catch us. Andy is the top of the game and it's a horserace to see who's in second.

BB is his defensive doppleganger. He's the defensive equivalent of Andy and he sets trends out there that nobody else can seem to duplicate (just as Andy does on O).

So when the Patriots do a thing that seems 180 degrees different than what we're doing on defense, that's worrisome. And right now the Patriots are largely eschewing the idea that pass-rush is king in the modern NFL and nobody can cover long enough to matter anyway with these rules. They're spending money on DBs and making their coverage work. That Steelers game wasn't a display of a fire-breathing pass-rush scaring off Big Ben - it was a secondary just blanketing guys.

Is he right? Should we have been building our defense around our defensive backfield rather than plowing all these assets into the DL? Should we have have stayed put at 1, taken Ya-Sin, even peddled Jones for another CB and just hurled assets at the secondary while trying to scheme pressure?

My gut says no. My gut says we got it right. But my gut's resume is a shitload less impressive than Bill Belichick's brain.

My concern don't mean shit, in the end. This team is unquestionably pot-committed to a plan built predominantly around it's DL and either it works or we lose. But you have to get a little skittish when you see probably the best defensive mind in history doing the opposite of what you're doing.

I understand what you're saying, but I think we're in a different place entirely than the Pats are. We needed a blow up and start over, and this is a work in progress as Andy and Spags have both said.

I don't think it's so much that we are emphasizing the front seven as it is that we needed scheme fits. Honey Badger and Thornhill are part of that too; it just so happened that no CB worth a big FA payday was there. Still, guys were brought in at every level. By mid-season, we should have 2 new starting CB's, 2 new starting safeties, 2 new starting LB'ers, and 2 new starting D-linemen. Plus more than half new depth/role players. It's a pretty massive overhaul.