Chiefs Attacking kneeldowns: good football or bad sportsmanship? - Page 4

**Rain Man** · 01:23 PM

I was getting annoyed on the Chiefs' last possession, the one where we had the ball on our own five with a minute left and were just doing kneeldowns.

On every kneeldown, the Patriots would create a big pileup by diving into our linemen.

It annoyed me because it's not going to work 999 times out of 1000. The general protocol of football is that if a team is kneeling down you let them do it because the game is essentially over. It's tradition, and it's generally frowned upon to do otherwise. (See Tom Nalen diving into Igor Olshansky's knees as an example.)

The Patriots were crashing hard into our linemen on every one of those kneeldowns even though Patrick was pulling off some of the greatest kneeldowns I've ever seen. Did you notice that? He was down in a split second and moving back. He may be the most talented kneeldown quarterback I've ever seen.

Having said all of that, the game ain't over until the final gun goes off, or Brady's bedtime, whichever comes first. If diving into the line works 1 time out of 1000, that's one extra game you're going to win. So it's good practice to do it from a pure win-loss perspective.

It makes me think that there should be a rule change to automatically take the clock down at the end of the game and the defending team can stop it by taking time outs, since kneeldowns are for the most part boring from a game perspective. Why should the league risk the knees of a Patriots player flying into them on a play that's essentially meaningless.

But back to the point. Was it good football that that Patriots were attacking our kneeldowns or bad sportsmanship?

Poll coming if I can keep Donta Hightower from diving into it.

Megatron96 · 12-09-2019, 06:09 PM

In the situation last night, Bill did what best served his team. It was a tiny chance to win the game.

In general, it's stupid and dangerous, but it's a part of the game and legal, so you just have to live with it.

**wazu** · 12-09-2019, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdcox

It's a player safety issue.

So is every snap in an NFL game.

**Bearcat** · 12-09-2019, 06:18 PM

Trying isn't unsportsmanlike when you're not winning (of course, within the rules with no intent to injure or with the sole purpose of drawing a penalty).

What if the situation was reversed and Brady botched a snap, but the Chiefs were just standing around on defense?

This place would implode.

**Rain Man** · 12-09-2019, 06:40 PM

I remember as a child that kneeldowns didn't exist, and then all of a sudden teams were doing them. I thought it made sense once I saw it. Prior to that, I just remember teams running the ball until the clock wound down.

According to wikipedia, the kneeldown can be blamed on Herm Edwards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterback_kneel

History
Prior to the mid-1970s, teams leading in the final moments of games generally ran quarterback sneaks (which brought the risk of injuries on low-yardage plays) or dive plays to the fullbacks or other running backs to run time off the clock, as some coaches considered kneeling cowardly or even unsportsmanlike. However, the Miracle at the Meadowlands, on November 19, 1978, in which defensive back Herman Edwards of the visiting Philadelphia Eagles recovered a botched handoff between quarterback Joe Pisarcik and running back Larry Csonka of the New York Giants, provided a nationally-televised spur for change.

With 31 seconds remaining, the Giants led 17–12 and the Eagles were out of timeouts.[3][4] As Pisarcik attempted to hand it to Larry Csonka, it was awkwardly fumbled; Edwards scooped it up and ran it 26 yards for the Eagles' improbable 19–17 victory.[5][6] The play generated tremendous controversy, ridicule, and criticism toward the Giants nationwide and specifically offensive coordinator Bob Gibson for failing to use the supposedly foolproof quarterback-kneeldown play.

In the week following the game, both the Eagles and Giants developed specific formations designed to protect the quarterback behind three players as he fell on the ball. Previously, quarterbacks executing a similar "kill the clock" play simply ran a quarterback sneak from a tightly packed conventional offensive formation. The Eagles made the playoffs and the Giants finished at 6–10.

The "victory formation" spread rapidly throughout football at nearly all levels, as coaches sought to adopt a procedure for downing the ball in the final seconds which would reduce the risk of turnovers to the absolute minimum possible. Within a season or so, it had become nearly universal. In 1987 the NFL rule allowing quarterbacks to simply kneel and not have to fall down and risk a hit from the defense took effect.

I'd forgotten about this play that's described in the same wikipedia article:

If there is still enough time left on the clock and the winning team attempts another quarterback kneel, the defensive team's strategy may repeat itself until it either runs out of time-outs, time runs out, or (most desirably) the team forces a punt or turnover, though in 2016, the Baltimore Ravens, leading in a game against the Cincinnati Bengals after three plays, ran off the remaining twelve seconds of clock off in a punt formation with Sam Koch purposefully holding the ball in the end zone while multiple holding calls were made against the Ravens offense. The play ended with Koch touching his toe to the back end zone line after time expired and taking an intentional safety (offensive fouls at the end of the game do not result in a replay of a down, unlike their defensive equivalents). The intentional holding aspect of the play was made illegal after the 2016 NFL season.

saphojunkie · 12-09-2019, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazu

It's somewhat situational. Yesterday they had us pinned close to our goal line, and they were only down 1 score. It's not crazy for them to attack in that situation. I don't think it warrants doing it all the time just to fight to the end, but this was a situation where as a Chiefs fan I wasn't 100% comfortable that we had enough backfield room to work with.

I said the same thing, and Prison Bitch got his MAGA panties in a bunch.

Mile High Mania · 12-09-2019, 07:08 PM

"It annoyed me because it's not going to work 999 times out of 1000. The general protocol of football is that if a team is kneeling down you let them do it because the game is essentially over."

I think you're looking for that 1 out of a 1,000 times in the situation you describe, if you're the defense. Very little time left, 1 score game with the opponent backed up on their own goal... you smash 'em.

If KC were up by 2 scores, I doubt you see much smashing.

Mile High Mania · 12-09-2019, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdcox

It's a player safety issue.

Uh huh... and if situations were reversed, you would be loving it.

seclark · 12-09-2019, 07:10 PM

Take the knee
Hold the ****in ball
Simple
Sec

**BigRedChief** · 12-09-2019, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eDave

It's a dick move.

Agreed. You are telling them the games over, we are not going to try to score anymore, As far as I know it's not considered an insult by anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaFace

Didn't someone run a fake out of a kneel-down position not too long ago? It was before halftime rather than just ending the game, but still.

In general, I'm fine with teams playing every down like it's a real play.

If some team takes advantage of a surrender/kneel down then that team can crash down on the lineman every time they do some BS like that. Cross the line, risk your lineman's knees or some overly aggressive person to try to take a shot at your QB.

Sully · 12-09-2019, 08:02 PM

It's a bullshit thing to do, with very little chance for "success," but if a team or player wants to risk their rep and/or retaliation, then have at it.
But if I were a ref and saw that, then I certainly wouldnt find fault with an OL taking out a guy's knees in the next kneel-down.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

**Bugeater** · 12-09-2019, 08:02 PM

My irrational hatred for the Patriots says it's shitty and should be penalized and every player ejected and the fans lined up and executed and the franchise folded.

Any other team....I'm ok with it.

**Bearcat** · 12-09-2019, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Agreed. You are telling them the games over, we are not going to try to score anymore, As far as I know it's not considered an insult by anyone.

That's awfully considerate of the team that's winning.

Chief Roundup · 12-09-2019, 09:48 PM

In all honesty it is call the Victory formation not a "kneeldown".
A person can point to Rivers and that instance. I will point to the HC that lost his team and job, Greg Schiano, for using these types of tactics. It is no different than just running the score up mercilessly . There is suppose to be some honor amongst men.

Chief Roundup · 12-09-2019, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bearcat

That's awfully considerate of the team that's winning.

Yeah or you know they could just pad their stats and make the other team look even worse, again the idea comes from mercy and honor.

The Refs · 12-09-2019, 09:53 PM

It's within the rules to do this.

View Poll Results: Attacking kneeldowns in the victory formation. What's your opinion?
Football is a 60-minute game. If it gives you a chance to win, you obviously do it.	18	15.65%
You should do it to try to win, but the injury risk may outweigh the reward.	6	5.22%
I'm neutral. I'm usually in the bathroom when the kneeldowns occur anyway.	2	1.74%
I'll deal with it if someone does it, because the game's not over. But it's kind of stupid.	20	17.39%
It's poor sportsmanship. Class up and acknowledge that you've lost.	64	55.65%
Kneeldowns shouldn't happen anyway. Keep attacking because scoring is the eighth or ninth tiebreaker for the playoffs.	5	4.35%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

12-09-2019, 01:18 PM
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $3168491 VARSITY	Attacking kneeldowns: good football or bad sportsmanship? I was getting annoyed on the Chiefs' last possession, the one where we had the ball on our own five with a minute left and were just doing kneeldowns. On every kneeldown, the Patriots would create a big pileup by diving into our linemen. It annoyed me because it's not going to work 999 times out of 1000. The general protocol of football is that if a team is kneeling down you let them do it because the game is essentially over. It's tradition, and it's generally frowned upon to do otherwise. (See Tom Nalen diving into Igor Olshansky's knees as an example.) The Patriots were crashing hard into our linemen on every one of those kneeldowns even though Patrick was pulling off some of the greatest kneeldowns I've ever seen. Did you notice that? He was down in a split second and moving back. He may be the most talented kneeldown quarterback I've ever seen. Having said all of that, the game ain't over until the final gun goes off, or Brady's bedtime, whichever comes first. If diving into the line works 1 time out of 1000, that's one extra game you're going to win. So it's good practice to do it from a pure win-loss perspective. It makes me think that there should be a rule change to automatically take the clock down at the end of the game and the defending team can stop it by taking time outs, since kneeldowns are for the most part boring from a game perspective. Why should the league risk the knees of a Patriots player flying into them on a play that's essentially meaningless. But back to the point. Was it good football that that Patriots were attacking our kneeldowns or bad sportsmanship? Poll coming if I can keep Donta Hightower from diving into it. Last edited by Rain Man; 12-09-2019 at 01:23 PM..
Posts: 141,574

12-09-2019, 06:09 PM	#46
Megatron96 Suupraa Geniuuusss Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Phoenix, AZ Casino cash: $1800400	In the situation last night, Bill did what best served his team. It was a tiny chance to win the game. In general, it's stupid and dangerous, but it's a part of the game and legal, so you just have to live with it.
Posts: 30,016	2 0

12-09-2019, 06:18 PM	#48
Bearcat Would an idiot do that? Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Arizona Casino cash: $2664931	Trying isn't unsportsmanlike when you're not winning (of course, within the rules with no intent to injure or with the sole purpose of drawing a penalty). What if the situation was reversed and Brady botched a snap, but the Chiefs were just standing around on defense? This place would implode.
Posts: 55,462

12-09-2019, 06:40 PM	#49
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $3168491 VARSITY	I remember as a child that kneeldowns didn't exist, and then all of a sudden teams were doing them. I thought it made sense once I saw it. Prior to that, I just remember teams running the ball until the clock wound down. According to wikipedia, the kneeldown can be blamed on Herm Edwards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarterback_kneel History Prior to the mid-1970s, teams leading in the final moments of games generally ran quarterback sneaks (which brought the risk of injuries on low-yardage plays) or dive plays to the fullbacks or other running backs to run time off the clock, as some coaches considered kneeling cowardly or even unsportsmanlike. However, the Miracle at the Meadowlands, on November 19, 1978, in which defensive back Herman Edwards of the visiting Philadelphia Eagles recovered a botched handoff between quarterback Joe Pisarcik and running back Larry Csonka of the New York Giants, provided a nationally-televised spur for change. With 31 seconds remaining, the Giants led 17–12 and the Eagles were out of timeouts.[3][4] As Pisarcik attempted to hand it to Larry Csonka, it was awkwardly fumbled; Edwards scooped it up and ran it 26 yards for the Eagles' improbable 19–17 victory.[5][6] The play generated tremendous controversy, ridicule, and criticism toward the Giants nationwide and specifically offensive coordinator Bob Gibson for failing to use the supposedly foolproof quarterback-kneeldown play. In the week following the game, both the Eagles and Giants developed specific formations designed to protect the quarterback behind three players as he fell on the ball. Previously, quarterbacks executing a similar "kill the clock" play simply ran a quarterback sneak from a tightly packed conventional offensive formation. The Eagles made the playoffs and the Giants finished at 6–10. The "victory formation" spread rapidly throughout football at nearly all levels, as coaches sought to adopt a procedure for downing the ball in the final seconds which would reduce the risk of turnovers to the absolute minimum possible. Within a season or so, it had become nearly universal. In 1987 the NFL rule allowing quarterbacks to simply kneel and not have to fall down and risk a hit from the defense took effect. I'd forgotten about this play that's described in the same wikipedia article: If there is still enough time left on the clock and the winning team attempts another quarterback kneel, the defensive team's strategy may repeat itself until it either runs out of time-outs, time runs out, or (most desirably) the team forces a punt or turnover, though in 2016, the Baltimore Ravens, leading in a game against the Cincinnati Bengals after three plays, ran off the remaining twelve seconds of clock off in a punt formation with Sam Koch purposefully holding the ball in the end zone while multiple holding calls were made against the Ravens offense. The play ended with Koch touching his toe to the back end zone line after time expired and taking an intentional safety (offensive fouls at the end of the game do not result in a replay of a down, unlike their defensive equivalents). The intentional holding aspect of the play was made illegal after the 2016 NFL season. __________________ I'm putting random letters here as a celebration of free speech: xigrakgrah misorojeq rkemeseit.
Posts: 141,574

12-09-2019, 07:08 PM	#51
Mile High Mania #triggering Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Tejas Casino cash: $3547229	"It annoyed me because it's not going to work 999 times out of 1000. The general protocol of football is that if a team is kneeling down you let them do it because the game is essentially over." I think you're looking for that 1 out of a 1,000 times in the situation you describe, if you're the defense. Very little time left, 1 score game with the opponent backed up on their own goal... you smash 'em. If KC were up by 2 scores, I doubt you see much smashing. __________________
Posts: 30,328

12-09-2019, 07:10 PM	#53
seclark MVP Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: nemo Casino cash: $1539900	Take the knee Hold the ****in ball Simple Sec __________________ "Mr. seclark. Wrong for gravy, wrong for jelly, wrong for biscuits." -rj "If every Planeteer who was disliked by another Planeteer stopped being a Planeteer we wouldn't have any Planeteers." -rj
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12-09-2019, 08:02 PM	#55
Sully It Goes On Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Lees Summit Casino cash: $10026331	It's a bullshit thing to do, with very little chance for "success," but if a team or player wants to risk their rep and/or retaliation, then have at it. But if I were a ref and saw that, then I certainly wouldnt find fault with an OL taking out a guy's knees in the next kneel-down. Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk __________________ "And I don't wish that girl any bad luck," he said, "but I hope she gets hit with a car." - Tommy Lasorda
Posts: 18,295

12-09-2019, 08:02 PM	#56
Bugeater The Maintenance Guy Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Renovated Bugeater Estate Casino cash: $6242680	My irrational hatred for the Patriots says it's shitty and should be penalized and every player ejected and the fans lined up and executed and the franchise folded. Any other team....I'm ok with it.
Posts: 70,443

12-09-2019, 09:48 PM	#58
Chief Roundup Admitted Planet Junky Join Date: Oct 2000 Casino cash: $1911627	In all honesty it is call the Victory formation not a "kneeldown". A person can point to Rivers and that instance. I will point to the HC that lost his team and job, Greg Schiano, for using these types of tactics. It is no different than just running the score up mercilessly . There is suppose to be some honor amongst men. __________________ Fanaticism is nowhere. There is no tenderness or humanity in fanaticism.
Posts: 19,221

12-09-2019, 09:53 PM	#60
The Refs Banned Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Tampa Bay, FL Casino cash: $9806394	It's within the rules to do this.
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