Chiefs Tom Brady May Not Be the Greatest QB Ever for Much Longer

Mama Hip Rockets · 01-25-2021, 04:51 PM

Great piece by Jason Kirk for Slate.com

As is the case basically half the time, Tom Brady is back in the Super Bowl. This time, he’s there with a new team, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. That means he has as many NFC championships in one try as Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, and Matt Ryan each have in their own dozen-plus attempts.

We all thought we might be finally rid of this guy, once he left Bill Belichick’s New England Patriots. But it turns out that adding a steady, capable, and alarmingly healthy veteran to a team with a good coaching staff, a good defense, and good offensive talent can work quite well, especially with conference rivals New Orleans and Green Bay imploding along the way.

Brady is 43 years old. He’s said he wants to play until he’s 45. Reaching a Super Bowl without Belichick, and maybe winning it, has got to be the last major milestone in his milestone-riddled career. There’s a post-Brady future on the horizon. I think. Right?

But it’s not like the NFL’s going to stop orbiting around a single quarterback once Brady is gone. Facing Brady’s team this time is reigning Super Bowl MVP Patrick Mahomes, who’s had arguably the most absurd three-year debut in American team sports history. Every few weeks, a new Mahomes stat makes you wonder if he’s going to end up tripling his predecessors, or merely doubling them.

This offseason, the Kansas City Chiefs signed Mahomes to a 10-year, $503 million deal, the biggest contract in sports history. In case that wasn’t a clear enough signal, the Chiefs’ franchise quarterback announced the news by tweeting, “We’re chasing a dynasty.”

Taken literally, that means both attempting to construct one while also pursuing the current one. Since Brady had already left the Patriots at the time of that contract, this entire season, if you like storylines, was actually about Mahomes’ Chiefs stalking Brady’s Bucs.

Win or lose against Brady in this year’s Super Bowl, there’s every reason to believe Mahomes will be back. Quite possibly several times. Maybe even a Brady-ish amount of times. There’s a real chance Super Bowl 55 is a handoff (sports term) from one generation’s championship mainstay to the next.

It’s a rare thing to already know who’ll be the league’s biggest star as soon as the league’s current biggest star is gone. That’s the easy part. The more difficult question, as always, is how to define greatness. Does GOAT mean winner-est winner? Best athlete? Most consistently excellent for the longest time? Biggest numbers? All of the above? Something else?

For a while, Brady’s contemporary in the QB GOAT debate was Peyton Manning, who usually had bigger numbers and more obvious talents, but fewer rings. Then it became the incredible and efficient Aaron Rodgers, although Rodgers has endured and/or caused more drama while staying with Green Bay than Brady did while leaving New England. Brady’s had his enormous seasons, including three MVP trophies, but his case is simple: rings, rings, and more rings. It’s hard to think of many unbelievable Brady highlights, but it’s easy to marvel at his unmatchable number of good plays in big games.

The case for someone like Manning or Rodgers takes more and more work by the year. Look at this throw. Look at that decision. Study these numbers, and pore over this footage. Let’s talk about context, from injuries to roster problems to incompetent coaches to bad luck. This side must also note how many of Brady’s biggest wins could’ve easily gone the other way, maybe even including this NFC championship against Rodgers, when the Packers chose a late field goal over letting their future Hall of Fame QB try for a touchdown.

Anyone still arguing for a non-Brady quarterback can construct a fine house of cards, held together by the most lovingly selected nuance. For most people, this house will then be crushed by RINGZ. And as a veteran of the Emmitt Smith (championships and longevity) vs. Barry Sanders (astounding human magnificence) wars, I’m confident there will remain holdouts, no matter how many titles Brady accumulates by the end.

Unless one player can become something like the best of both worlds.

Mahomes’ career ceiling is so high it’s almost impervious to hyperbole. Barring retirement or a major misfortune, we already know he’s gunning not just for the Hall of Fame, but for the Brady echelon. “If he can keep this up for 15 more years or so, he’ll have all the records” is the kind of statement that should get you laughed out of any argument, but in Mahomes’ case it’s not laughable. We might have a single player with talent like Rodgers’, command like Manning’s, and flair for the moment like Brady’s. The biggest test might be whether Mahomes has anything like Brady’s stubbornness in the face of Father Time.

That’s how good Mahomes is: He’s 25 years old, yet to reckon with his place in history we already have to talk about him as an eventual old man, to imagine how much his game might change by the time he’s 40 (if the concept of “games” even exists that long).

This isn’t exactly a prediction, but there is a 2040s scenario in which most of the millennium’s Super Bowls have featured either Brady or Mahomes or both of them. That would mean that four decades of NFL history end up being dominated by just two guys. (And, you know, their collective hundreds of really good teammates.)

It’s possible, in our 2040 world, that Mahomes has topped Brady’s career passing yardage record, and done so while also piling up more no-look, off-balance, scrambling highlights than Rodgers, Brett Favre, Lamar Jackson, Drew Brees’ various sons, or anybody else.

Just imagine. A single player having both the most rings and the best stats and the best highlights. If Brady’s on-field production makes him something like football’s Bill Russell, the winner of all winners, then Mahomes could become football’s Michael Jordan.

You know, the guy who finally resolves the GOAT debate for … OK, realistically no time at all.

https://slate.com/culture/2021/01/ma...5CDUXmXJ5zUdhA

**DaFace** · 01-25-2021, 04:53 PM

I think it's possible Mahomes will eventually be seen as the most GIFTED player of all time. It's a pretty long shot that he'll end up being the most ACCOMPLISHED, though. Brady is just too much of an outlier to expect that.

KC_Connection · 01-25-2021, 04:54 PM

It truly was an honor to watch Tom Brady: The Greatest Player In Sports History. https://t.co/DjcsJ36Z9p pic.twitter.com/G5742qvARL
— Barry McCockiner (@UltraWeedHater) January 25, 2021

KC_Connection · 01-25-2021, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaFace

I think it's possible Mahomes will eventually be seen as the most GIFTED player of all time. It's a pretty long shot that he'll end up being the most ACCOMPLISHED, though. Brady is just too much of an outlier to expect that.

If Mahomes stays healthy and actually wants to play as long as Brady (which are both big "ifs" I suppose), he will thrash every one of his individual marks. Team success is quite a bit out of his control, but he'll have his opportunities.

As it is, though, I'm pretty comfortable saying Mahomes is the best player to ever play the game (note: this is different than the "greatest"). Nobody has ever played at this level before.

Mecca · 01-25-2021, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaFace

I think it's possible Mahomes will eventually be seen as the most GIFTED player of all time. It's a pretty long shot that he'll end up being the most ACCOMPLISHED, though. Brady is just too much of an outlier to expect that.

That's probably true, Brady just won't go away. Think about this...if Mahomes maintains the winning percentage he has now of 82% and he retired at 38 he'd be 23 wins behind Brady.

Brady has played so long breaking his stuff will be hard.

tredadda · 01-25-2021, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mecca

That's probably true, Brady just won't go away. Think about this...if Mahomes maintains the winning percentage he has now of 82% and he retired at 38 he'd be 23 wins behind Brady.

Brady has played so long breaking his stuff will be hard.

Not only has he played forever, he also has been stunningly healthy over the course of his career.

kgrund · 01-25-2021, 05:20 PM

Tom Brady is the Bill Russell of QBs. Likely not the best at his position, even in his prime, but a very great player for a long period of time, with great team accomplishments almost exclusively with one team. Nothing wrong being Bill Russell, but that does not mean you are Michael Jordan.

Gary Cooper · 01-25-2021, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgrund

Tom Brady is the Bill Russell of QBs. Likely not the best at his position, even in his prime, but a very great player for a long period of time, with great team accomplishments almost exclusively with one team. Nothing wrong being Bill Russell, but that does not mean you are Michael Jordan.

Agreed. People confuse the best career versus the best player. Russell vs. Jordan is a good example. Russell was 11-1 in the Finals and also won 5 MPVs. But I wouldn't rank him ahead of Jordan, even though Russell clearly had the better career.

Tom Brady has the most successful career in NFL history. Nobody comes close. However, I can't say he's the best QB I ever saw. Mahomes and Rodgers at their peaks were better. They did things Brady couldn't do. I would also pick Manning ahead of him at his peak. Manning won 5 MVPs. Yesterday's matchup is a great example. Aaron Rodgers has been the best QB in the last decade. However, he's gone to 1 Super Bowl and Brady probably has 5 or 6 trips just during that span. Would you say Brady is five times better than Rodgers in the last decade? Of course not.

Brady has been to 10 Super Bowls and it's unlikely anyone will break that record. As good as Mahomes is, playing in 10 Super Bowls will be almost impossible to reach. Too many variables go into that. That by itself doesn't make him the greatest ever to play the position.

stevieray · 01-25-2021, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tredadda

Not only has he played forever, he also has been stunningly healthy over the course of his career.

Well yeah, they changed the game for him (QB's). They called a flag on Jones for hitting his shoulder pad.

No way he lasts this long back in the day.

Dawson is ten times the bad ass.

Brady also benefitted from a totally weak division for a decade.

KChiefs1 · 01-26-2021, 03:23 PM

rabblerouser · 01-26-2021, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JudasRising20

Agreed. People confuse the best career versus the best player. Russell vs. Jordan is a good example. Russell was 11-1 in the Finals and also won 5 MPVs. But I wouldn't rank him ahead of Jordan, even though Russell clearly had the better career.

Tom Brady has the most successful career in NFL history. Nobody comes close. However, I can't say he's the best QB I ever saw. Mahomes and Rodgers at their peaks were better. They did things Brady couldn't do. I would also pick Manning ahead of him at his peak. Manning won 5 MVPs. Yesterday's matchup is a great example. Aaron Rodgers has been the best QB in the last decade. However, he's gone to 1 Super Bowl and Brady probably has 5 or 6 trips just during that span. Would you say Brady is five times better than Rodgers in the last decade? Of course not.

Brady has been to 10 Super Bowls and it's unlikely anyone will break that record. As good as Mahomes is, playing in 10 Super Bowls will be almost impossible to reach. Too many variables go into that. That by itself doesn't make him the greatest ever to play the position.

I think Montana>Brady, he just played in an era where you were allowed to murder the QB. Montana played against Buddy Ryan defenses. Tom Brady's longevity is partly because of the era he played in...Montana was 4-0 in his Super Bowls, and didn't throw a single interception in a single one of them.

Brady is waaaaaaaay too close to .500 in his SB appearances for him to be the GOAT. I mean, he's won more than anyone...but he's lost more than anyone, too.

Wallcrawler · 01-26-2021, 04:13 PM

Hes not winning 7. He shouldnt have 6. He escaped Mahomes in that 2018 title game, after his GAME LOSING interception was negated because Dee Ford couldn't handle the complexity of lining up correctly. Went on to barely eek out a win in the SUPERBORE against a Rams team we would have blown out.

He gets beaten at home by Mahomes the following regular season on his way to his final pass in New England being picked in a playoff loss. He escapes the revenge of Mahomes through sheer ineptitude.

Brady flees the AFC. He knows what time it is. He knows he has no shot at getting past Mahomes with the Cheatriots.

Goes on to lose to Mahomes at home with his new team, enjoying a taste of how it feels to never get tbe ball back at the end, but goes on to the playoffs and manages to defeat the decrepit shell of Drew Brees, and then survives THREE terrible interceptions in the second half of NFCCG.

Aaron Rodgers melted down and Matt Lafleur was a coward/reerun kicking a fg down 8 late. Brady manages the one first down needed to win the game without throwing another pick.

So now he's in the Superbowl, at home, and the Chiefs are coming.

There's nowhere left to run, Tom Brady. Its time to settle the score for 2018.

You will go down in flames as another chapter in the legend of Patrick Mahomes II. People will begin to say that you lost almost as many Superbowls as you won.

If you're lucky, maybe Mahomes will stop by your locker room and offer a few words after hoisting the Lombardi for a second straight year.

Rasputin · 01-26-2021, 04:17 PM

He hasn't been the greatest since Patrick Mahomes II very first start in the NFL

Sorce · 01-26-2021, 04:18 PM

The thing that made Brady great is he realized he wasn't. He was willing to renegotiate his salary to keep that defense stacked and the offense good enough. Very rarely did he have to carry the team. There are a bunch of QBs through history I would take over him. This is what drives me crazy hearing Stephen A yell about Mahomes' weapons. Why can't we make that same argument about Brady's whole career. Not to mention multiple cheating and officiating scandals. We'll just ignore all of that, let's face it Brady is Bill Goldberg his greatness is manufactured.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

smithandrew051 · 01-26-2021, 04:23 PM

It’s going to be funny in 15 years when old men are trying to convince guys in their 30’s that Brady was better than Mahomes.

Just imagine the difference between those two career highlight reels. Hell, watch their career highlight reels right now.

“But Brady was smarter!” Uh huh

Mahomes will crush his statistics and probably have 4-5 rings. The rings will be hard to catch, but the AFC is wide open for Mahomes.

01-25-2021, 04:51 PM
Mama Hip Rockets You don't faze me, Gobble. Join Date: Dec 2005 Casino cash: $10005644	Tom Brady May Not Be the Greatest QB Ever for Much Longer Great piece by Jason Kirk for Slate.com As is the case basically half the time, Tom Brady is back in the Super Bowl. This time, he’s there with a new team, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. That means he has as many NFC championships in one try as Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, and Matt Ryan each have in their own dozen-plus attempts. We all thought we might be finally rid of this guy, once he left Bill Belichick’s New England Patriots. But it turns out that adding a steady, capable, and alarmingly healthy veteran to a team with a good coaching staff, a good defense, and good offensive talent can work quite well, especially with conference rivals New Orleans and Green Bay imploding along the way. Brady is 43 years old. He’s said he wants to play until he’s 45. Reaching a Super Bowl without Belichick, and maybe winning it, has got to be the last major milestone in his milestone-riddled career. There’s a post-Brady future on the horizon. I think. Right? But it’s not like the NFL’s going to stop orbiting around a single quarterback once Brady is gone. Facing Brady’s team this time is reigning Super Bowl MVP Patrick Mahomes, who’s had arguably the most absurd three-year debut in American team sports history. Every few weeks, a new Mahomes stat makes you wonder if he’s going to end up tripling his predecessors, or merely doubling them. This offseason, the Kansas City Chiefs signed Mahomes to a 10-year, $503 million deal, the biggest contract in sports history. In case that wasn’t a clear enough signal, the Chiefs’ franchise quarterback announced the news by tweeting, “We’re chasing a dynasty.” Taken literally, that means both attempting to construct one while also pursuing the current one. Since Brady had already left the Patriots at the time of that contract, this entire season, if you like storylines, was actually about Mahomes’ Chiefs stalking Brady’s Bucs. Win or lose against Brady in this year’s Super Bowl, there’s every reason to believe Mahomes will be back. Quite possibly several times. Maybe even a Brady-ish amount of times. There’s a real chance Super Bowl 55 is a handoff (sports term) from one generation’s championship mainstay to the next. It’s a rare thing to already know who’ll be the league’s biggest star as soon as the league’s current biggest star is gone. That’s the easy part. The more difficult question, as always, is how to define greatness. Does GOAT mean winner-est winner? Best athlete? Most consistently excellent for the longest time? Biggest numbers? All of the above? Something else? For a while, Brady’s contemporary in the QB GOAT debate was Peyton Manning, who usually had bigger numbers and more obvious talents, but fewer rings. Then it became the incredible and efficient Aaron Rodgers, although Rodgers has endured and/or caused more drama while staying with Green Bay than Brady did while leaving New England. Brady’s had his enormous seasons, including three MVP trophies, but his case is simple: rings, rings, and more rings. It’s hard to think of many unbelievable Brady highlights, but it’s easy to marvel at his unmatchable number of good plays in big games. The case for someone like Manning or Rodgers takes more and more work by the year. Look at this throw. Look at that decision. Study these numbers, and pore over this footage. Let’s talk about context, from injuries to roster problems to incompetent coaches to bad luck. This side must also note how many of Brady’s biggest wins could’ve easily gone the other way, maybe even including this NFC championship against Rodgers, when the Packers chose a late field goal over letting their future Hall of Fame QB try for a touchdown. Anyone still arguing for a non-Brady quarterback can construct a fine house of cards, held together by the most lovingly selected nuance. For most people, this house will then be crushed by RINGZ. And as a veteran of the Emmitt Smith (championships and longevity) vs. Barry Sanders (astounding human magnificence) wars, I’m confident there will remain holdouts, no matter how many titles Brady accumulates by the end. Unless one player can become something like the best of both worlds. Mahomes’ career ceiling is so high it’s almost impervious to hyperbole. Barring retirement or a major misfortune, we already know he’s gunning not just for the Hall of Fame, but for the Brady echelon. “If he can keep this up for 15 more years or so, he’ll have all the records” is the kind of statement that should get you laughed out of any argument, but in Mahomes’ case it’s not laughable. We might have a single player with talent like Rodgers’, command like Manning’s, and flair for the moment like Brady’s. The biggest test might be whether Mahomes has anything like Brady’s stubbornness in the face of Father Time. That’s how good Mahomes is: He’s 25 years old, yet to reckon with his place in history we already have to talk about him as an eventual old man, to imagine how much his game might change by the time he’s 40 (if the concept of “games” even exists that long). This isn’t exactly a prediction, but there is a 2040s scenario in which most of the millennium’s Super Bowls have featured either Brady or Mahomes or both of them. That would mean that four decades of NFL history end up being dominated by just two guys. (And, you know, their collective hundreds of really good teammates.) It’s possible, in our 2040 world, that Mahomes has topped Brady’s career passing yardage record, and done so while also piling up more no-look, off-balance, scrambling highlights than Rodgers, Brett Favre, Lamar Jackson, Drew Brees’ various sons, or anybody else. Just imagine. A single player having both the most rings and the best stats and the best highlights. If Brady’s on-field production makes him something like football’s Bill Russell, the winner of all winners, then Mahomes could become football’s Michael Jordan. You know, the guy who finally resolves the GOAT debate for … OK, realistically no time at all. https://slate.com/culture/2021/01/ma...5CDUXmXJ5zUdhA
Posts: 13,675

01-25-2021, 04:53 PM	#2
DaFace Kind of a mod Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Donkey Land Casino cash: $1996899	I think it's possible Mahomes will eventually be seen as the most GIFTED player of all time. It's a pretty long shot that he'll end up being the most ACCOMPLISHED, though. Brady is just too much of an outlier to expect that.
Posts: 51,808	3 1

01-25-2021, 04:54 PM	#3
KC_Connection Perpetual Mediocrity Join Date: Jan 2006 Casino cash: $5342783	It truly was an honor to watch Tom Brady: The Greatest Player In Sports History. https://t.co/DjcsJ36Z9p pic.twitter.com/G5742qvARL — Barry McCockiner (@UltraWeedHater) January 25, 2021
Posts: 48,952	7 0

01-25-2021, 05:20 PM	#7
kgrund Starter Join Date: Dec 2011 Casino cash: $1650956	Tom Brady is the Bill Russell of QBs. Likely not the best at his position, even in his prime, but a very great player for a long period of time, with great team accomplishments almost exclusively with one team. Nothing wrong being Bill Russell, but that does not mean you are Michael Jordan.
Posts: 698	6 0

01-26-2021, 03:23 PM	#10
KChiefs1 I’m a Mahomo! Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Mid-Missouri Casino cash: $6771021	__________________
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01-26-2021, 04:13 PM	#12
Wallcrawler How tall is this thing? Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ground 0 for enema of US. Casino cash: $4222912	Hes not winning 7. He shouldnt have 6. He escaped Mahomes in that 2018 title game, after his GAME LOSING interception was negated because Dee Ford couldn't handle the complexity of lining up correctly. Went on to barely eek out a win in the SUPERBORE against a Rams team we would have blown out. He gets beaten at home by Mahomes the following regular season on his way to his final pass in New England being picked in a playoff loss. He escapes the revenge of Mahomes through sheer ineptitude. Brady flees the AFC. He knows what time it is. He knows he has no shot at getting past Mahomes with the Cheatriots. Goes on to lose to Mahomes at home with his new team, enjoying a taste of how it feels to never get tbe ball back at the end, but goes on to the playoffs and manages to defeat the decrepit shell of Drew Brees, and then survives THREE terrible interceptions in the second half of NFCCG. Aaron Rodgers melted down and Matt Lafleur was a coward/reerun kicking a fg down 8 late. Brady manages the one first down needed to win the game without throwing another pick. So now he's in the Superbowl, at home, and the Chiefs are coming. There's nowhere left to run, Tom Brady. Its time to settle the score for 2018. You will go down in flames as another chapter in the legend of Patrick Mahomes II. People will begin to say that you lost almost as many Superbowls as you won. If you're lucky, maybe Mahomes will stop by your locker room and offer a few words after hoisting the Lombardi for a second straight year. __________________ She did not open her eyes this morning. I don't know what else to say.
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01-26-2021, 04:17 PM	#13
Rasputin Tip of the hat LIV Champs Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: ks Casino cash: $3455421	He hasn't been the greatest since Patrick Mahomes II very first start in the NFL __________________ A Brave Man Once Requested Me To Answer Questions That Are Key 'Is It To Be Or Not To Be' And I Replied Oh Why Ask Me
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01-26-2021, 04:18 PM	#14
Sorce Veteran Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kansas City, MO Casino cash: $6418777	The thing that made Brady great is he realized he wasn't. He was willing to renegotiate his salary to keep that defense stacked and the offense good enough. Very rarely did he have to carry the team. There are a bunch of QBs through history I would take over him. This is what drives me crazy hearing Stephen A yell about Mahomes' weapons. Why can't we make that same argument about Brady's whole career. Not to mention multiple cheating and officiating scandals. We'll just ignore all of that, let's face it Brady is Bill Goldberg his greatness is manufactured. Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
Posts: 2,444

01-26-2021, 04:23 PM	#15
smithandrew051 I Like The Kansas City Chiefs Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Shawnee, KS Casino cash: $3204400	It’s going to be funny in 15 years when old men are trying to convince guys in their 30’s that Brady was better than Mahomes. Just imagine the difference between those two career highlight reels. Hell, watch their career highlight reels right now. “But Brady was smarter!” Uh huh Mahomes will crush his statistics and probably have 4-5 rings. The rings will be hard to catch, but the AFC is wide open for Mahomes. __________________ My 2023 Adopt a Chief: Keondre Coburn Holy Hat!
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