The mystery of our fascination with Outside Zone

[DJ's left nut]

So I'll gladly listen to anyone that wants to correct me on this one, but it sure looks to me like the Chiefs STILL prefer an outside zone running system and for the life of me I cannot figure out why.

There's an article in the Athletic that really sums up my confusing in a lot of ways. It's about the Lions dedication to a power gap scheme. Here's a little blurb that kinda makes my point for me:

The popularity of the outside zone system that stems from Kyle Shanahan and Sean McVay has led to more teams employing a Vic Fangio-style defense, which asks defensive linemen to play slower and take on a gap-and-a-half, rather than fly upfield and play only one gap. Theoretically, the defense can live in light boxes and invest more personnel in defending the pass as long as its front can slow down ball carriers long enough for the secondary to help. This works well against zone runs because offensive linemen move laterally, but the Lions like to run right into the teeth of defenses with authority. They want their offensive line, one of the best in the league, firing off vertically and punishing defenders.

https://theathletic.com/3613162/2022...e-ben-johnson/


WHY IS THIS NOT OUR RUNNING GAME!?!?! Teams have been doing that Fangio shit to us for 2+ years now. They're living in light boxes and when we run the ball we're leading with our chins and running this damn outside zone crap that A) Doesn't take advantage of our power blockers as well and B) Lets the defense do what it wants to do, which is use speed and move laterally to race us to the sidelines and seal off big gains. It can essentially run Nickel formations and still manage that.

Maybe they're doing more gap running than I realize or maybe I'm just too damn stupid to see the bigger picture of what they're trying to accomplish.

But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more. When we run, it should absolutely be a gap scheme designed to just maul guys rather than this outside zone crap that just does them a massive favor while not taking advantage of our OL's greatest strengths.

[crayzkirk]

I don't know the names of all of the schemes that the Chiefs play in the run game however it seems, to me, that when a yard or two is needed, the Chiefs struggle to just line up and get it done. Some play that takes a long time develop occurs and the Chiefs lose yardage and have to punt.

Everything worked against the Cardinals and the Chargers appeared to know what was coming at them. Is it the personnel, the coaching or a combination of both?

[scho63]

Well at least we are not running the Twilight Zone.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by crayzkirk

I don't know the names of all of the schemes that the Chiefs play in the run game however it seems, to me, that when a yard or two is needed, the Chiefs struggle to just line up and get it done.

recency bias

michael burton was undefeated converting short yardage

fans still remember a couple years ago, before trey and creed, when we couldn't run power for shit

[Chiefshrink]

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother

Clyde has over 7 YPC...

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother

The team is averaging 5 YPC as a whole so not sure what there is to cry about other than the occasional Andy special run play that blows up from time to timem

What don't you understand about DJ's comment below ??? I as well, really thought losing Hill might be a blessing in disguise to make defenses even more frustrated in 'pick your poison'. But it hasn't happened yet and why Schuster and Scantling are quiet to this point. BUT it is still early and chemistry is still being built SOOOO I will be patient for now. However, IF by 2/3rds of the way through the season these guys are still quiet and our run game rarely runs interior and is mediocre once again, I assure you we will NOT beat Buffalo. Great point DJ!!

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more.

[DJ's left nut]

I just have nothing to add to this:

Some added context to this:
When the Chiefs run OZ/RPO concept from shotgun the RB's shoulders turn to the sideline, CEH has never been a start-and-stop player and by the time he can get to the backside, there's nothing he can do. He couldn't see the lane until it was too late https://t.co/aDAkTkmFFW pic.twitter.com/bDCFKpl76N

— Daniel Harms�� (@InHarmsWay19) September 26, 2022

This is not a team that's going to excel by continuing with the RPO/OZ concepts. They need to build a new plane while they're flying it here. This just isn't working.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I just have nothing to add to this:

Some added context to this:
When the Chiefs run OZ/RPO concept from shotgun the RB's shoulders turn to the sideline, CEH has never been a start-and-stop player and by the time he can get to the backside, there's nothing he can do. He couldn't see the lane until it was too late https://t.co/aDAkTkmFFW pic.twitter.com/bDCFKpl76N

— Daniel Harms�� (@InHarmsWay19) September 26, 2022

This is not a team that's going to excel by continuing with the RPO/OZ concepts. They need to build a new plane while they're flying it here. This just isn't working.

Yep. That's a tough one. IMO, may as well see what Pacheco has on some drives.

I was hoping Ealy would be our "quick guy in small spaces" guy, but obviously that isn't the case. Hell, I might IR McKinnon or CEH for a bit and see if I can find anything on the street.

[boilertiger]

I don't understand why we are so married to it. I wish Andy would explain it to us but we'll never get it out of him.

[emaw1979]

Many people, including myself, have been begging the Chiefs to run a power or gap scheme since last year.

I'm not going to claim I'm smarter than Reid or EB but I feel the Gap/Power scheme fits this line, running back room and offense much better than this outside zone scheme. It would also speed up the defense requiring them to commit earlier.

OBJ, Thuney, Creed all come from and played at a very high level with a gap/power scheme. Trey Smith has the body, strength and mind to dominate as well.

[JPH83]

I don't know who's to blame but the running game is absolutely not this group of coaches finest hour. By this point they really should have worked out the players they have, what they can and can't do, and what defences are anticipating, and somewhat work around that. None of that seems to be happening.

[Hammock Parties]

pacheco will house this

the Falcons were shredding the Browns on the ground with mostly zone run concepts.

but check out this change-up they used. The formation and initial sell seems like a Lead Outside Zone run concept, but the Falcons pull Center Drew Dalman for a Windback run play and a big gain. pic.twitter.com/uNxLEi03CT

— Nate Tice (@Nate_Tice) October 3, 2022

[DJ's left nut]

Definitely noticed more gap looks this week. And honestly, I think the willingness to utilize them made the zone stuff more effective.

[Pitt Gorilla]

Originally Posted by JPH83

I don't know who's to blame but the running game is absolutely not this group of coaches finest hour. By this point they really should have worked out the players they have, what they can and can't do, and what defences are anticipating, and somewhat work around that. None of that seems to be happening.

They did pretty well against what WAS a top-10 rushing defense.

[JPH83]

Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla

They did pretty well against what WAS a top-10 rushing defense.

Yep, night and day from the Colts game. I dunno, better play calling, better execution, everything was just...good

[Sorter]

Originally Posted by O.city

You son of a bitch, how are you?

Anyway, when you say "cutback" rules do you mean cutblock?

Doing pretty well, just more busy than I'd like to be.

And yes, I did mean to use cutblock. Tequila affects my brain more than whisky it seems.

[Sorter]

[QUOTE=DJ's left nut;16482589]I sent out the Sorter signal; he saw I started a thread and thought "Holy crap, I'll bet this is AWESOME..."

Yeah, I presumed he meant the cut-block rules.

Though in some ways it seems like those rules should actually make it easier to run an outside zone given that DBs cant submarine those pulling guards anymore.

Good in theory but most DBs aren't willing to risk taking on blocks like that currently.

I hadn't considered the RPO element of it and yeah, that makes a ton of sense. You want your lineman going slow/sideways in an RPO so you don't end up with an ineligible man downfield penalty if the QB elects to pull the ball.

I wonder if that's not the most obvious explanation. Andy didn't use to favor the OZ like he does but that was before the rise of the RPO - so it seems pretty likely that the run design is more likely to follow the pass design than anything. And since you can't really go out there and run two different styles (because again - reps and time are limited), he's just elected to steer into the skid and find a way to get better at OZ runs rather than feature a gap system and try to maul his way between the tackles.

Still seems like an opportunity missed (especially since I'm not a fan of the RPOs at this point either)...

Regarding your last large paragraph, Andy has always favored ZB because of the big payoffs it used to yield via cutback + the advantages of boot action for PA.

Then you have the cross screen game that they were wicked with in Philly because of people overflowing to the zone run side.