The mystery of our fascination with Outside Zone

[Coochie liquor]

Originally Posted by Molitoth

I get Mahomes is our QB and you want it in his hands every play... but Andy has shown that it really doesn't matter what scheme we use, and how successful we are with it... he won't stick with it.

I remember him running it down the Tits throats in that AFCCG.

1st & 10 at KC 27
(6:58 - 3rd) Dam.Williams right guard to KC 33 for 6 yards (R.Evans; K.Correa).
2nd & 4 at KC 33
(6:25 - 3rd) (Shotgun) Dam.Williams right tackle to KC 36 for 3 yards (K.Correa; K.Vaccaro).
3rd & 1 at KC 36
(5:47 - 3rd) Dam.Williams left guard to KC 41 for 5 yards (L.Ryan).
1st & 10 at KC 41
(5:09 - 3rd) (Shotgun) Dam.Williams up the middle to KC 42 for 1 yard (H.Landry).
2nd & 9 at KC 42
(4:29 - 3rd) (Shotgun) P.Mahomes pass short left to S.Watkins to KC 49 for 7 yards (T.Brock).
3rd & 2 at KC 49
(3:49 - 3rd) (Shotgun) P.Mahomes scrambles left end ran ob at TEN 47 for 4 yards (K.Byard).
1st & 10 at TEN 47
(3:18 - 3rd) T.Hill right end to TEN 40 for 7 yards (J.Brown).
2nd & 3 at TEN 40
(2:31 - 3rd) (Shotgun) D.Thompson right end to TEN 33 for 7 yards (K.Byard).
1st & 10 at TEN 33
(1:46 - 3rd) (Shotgun) P.Mahomes scrambles left end ran ob at TEN 22 for 11 yards (L.Ryan).
1st & 10 at TEN 22
(1:13 - 3rd) Dam.Williams right end ran ob at TEN 18 for 4 yards (A.Jackson).
2nd & 6 at TEN 18
(0:38 - 3rd) (Shotgun) P.Mahomes pass short right to T.Hill pushed ob at TEN 3 for 15 yards (W.Woodyard).
END QUARTER 3
1st & Goal at TEN 3
(15:00 - 4th) P.Mahomes pass incomplete short right to A.Sherman.
2nd & Goal at TEN 3
(14:50 - 4th) Damien Williams 3 Yard Rush H.Butker extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Winchester, Holder-D.Colquitt.

I’d love to see more if that. Obviously don’t want to take it out of Pats hands. But killimg teams and clock with the run game is good as well.

[the steam]

Originally Posted by Molitoth

I get Mahomes is our QB and you want it in his hands every play... but Andy has shown that it really doesn't matter what scheme we use, and how successful we are with it... he won't stick with it.

I remember Andy blowing a game by refusing to run the ball back in his Philly days. John Madden was kinda chuckling about it "It's so hard for Andy to call a lot of runs, even when it's called for, just not in his DNA."

[kcclone]

Vic Fangio pwned Andy Reid. Everyone knows that.

[xztop123]

I like these kind of posts.

Btw off-topic but we’re running a boat lot of cover 4 and zone defense in general. Maybe we are copying how other teams stopped mahomes- not sure.

I doubt we’d run that defense against a weak qb but the chargers game was from an eye test like 70 + % zone d

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Clyde has over 7 YPC...

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother

Clyde has over 7 YPC...

Just like last seas....oh wait. Our running game was miserable last year. Oh, and nearly half his yards this season came on a single run that was simple inside trap from under center.

I don't think you're making as strong a point as you think you are...

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Just like last seas....oh wait. Our running game was miserable last year. Oh, and nearly half his yards this season came on a single run that was simple inside trap from under center.

I don't think you're making as strong a point as you think you are...

The team is averaging 5 YPC as a whole so not sure what there is to cry about other than the occasional Andy special run play that blows up from time to timem

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother

The team is averaging 5 YPC as a whole so not sure what there is to cry about other than the occasional Andy special run play that blows up from time to timem

Plenty of threads to talk about bodily functions or personal finance if you've got something better to do than discuss football.

Nobody's crying about anything. It's a conversation about a fairly prominent component of one of the more diverse offensive teams in the game. I'm sure there's a baseball or Bronco's thread you can dive into if you find that more your speed.

[BWillie]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

So I'll gladly listen to anyone that wants to correct me on this one, but it sure looks to me like the Chiefs STILL prefer an outside zone running system and for the life of me I cannot figure out why.

There's an article in the Athletic that really sums up my confusing in a lot of ways. It's about the Lions dedication to a power gap scheme. Here's a little blurb that kinda makes my point for me:



https://theathletic.com/3613162/2022...e-ben-johnson/


WHY IS THIS NOT OUR RUNNING GAME!?!?! Teams have been doing that Fangio shit to us for 2+ years now. They're living in light boxes and when we run the ball we're leading with our chins and running this damn outside zone crap that A) Doesn't take advantage of our power blockers as well and B) Lets the defense do what it wants to do, which is use speed and move laterally to race us to the sidelines and seal off big gains. It can essentially run Nickel formations and still manage that.

Maybe they're doing more gap running than I realize or maybe I'm just too damn stupid to see the bigger picture of what they're trying to accomplish.

But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more. When we run, it should absolutely be a gap scheme designed to just maul guys rather than this outside zone crap that just does them a massive favor while not taking advantage of our OL's greatest strengths.

I may have been persuaded but then you brought up....VIC FANGIO.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BWillie

I may have been persuaded but then you brought up....VIC FANGIO.

2 high shell. 4 deep quarters. Whatever you want to call it.

Fangio was doing it back when it wasn't cool and now it seems like everyone is and they're opening themselves up for a power run attack in the process.

I'm trying to find out where the hole in the net is here. It CAN'T be that simple or someone other than Dan !@#$ing Campbell would've figured it out by now. Maybe it's just the natural evolution of the Greg Roman attack?

I dunno...it doesn't make sense to me.

[Sorter]

[QUOTE=DJ's left nut;16481177]So I'll gladly listen to anyone that wants to correct me on this one, but it sure looks to me like the Chiefs STILL prefer an outside zone running system and for the life of me I cannot figure out why.

There's an article in the Athletic that really sums up my confusing in a lot of ways. It's about the Lions dedication to a power gap scheme. Here's a little blurb that kinda makes my point for me:



https://theathletic.com/3613162/2022...e-ben-johnson/

For whatever reason, the article won't load for me but I'll try to answer as best I can.

WHY IS THIS NOT OUR RUNNING GAME!?!?! Teams have been doing that Fangio shit to us for 2+ years now. They're living in light boxes and when we run the ball we're leading with our chins and running this damn outside zone crap that A) Doesn't take advantage of our power blockers as well and B) Lets the defense do what it wants to do, which is use speed and move laterally to race us to the sidelines and seal off big gains. It can essentially run Nickel formations and still manage that.

This is why we (and most teams) run inside zone against nickel. There have been a few teams that are OZ junkies (49ers/GB/Colts with Manning that would just say "**** it, you're not dropping that extra human into the box" that would run it out of trips (with 3W or 2W/1TE on the trips side). However, that has largely gone away with the cutback rules.

Maybe they're doing more gap running than I realize or maybe I'm just too damn stupid to see the bigger picture of what they're trying to accomplish.

Chiefs (like most WCO based teams) throw power/gap concepts in as gameplanned concepts and will either lean on them/throw them away based on how they're doing. The E/P offenses of the past used power/gap concepts as their base but even the remnants of it have shifted to probably a 65/35 of OZ/Gap.

But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more. When we run, it should absolutely be a gap scheme designed to just maul guys rather than this outside zone crap that just does them a massive favor while not taking advantage of our OL's greatest strengths.

For as much as he gets shit on (and rightfully so) McDaniels was great at blending these philosophies together (especially in no-huddle). There are numerous times where after NE would have a big passing completion where they would either A) Double up on OZ zone and have 3rd and short or B) OZ, then power and then power again.

Haley was a little bit against the grain during his time in Pitt as he would make IZ/Power their base runs (in contrast to Arians who was an IZ/OZ then power as a change up) then throw counter in as his change up (and DeCastro would maul people)

[Armyofme]

Originally Posted by Sorter

For as much as he gets shit on (and rightfully so) McDaniels was great at blending these philosophies together (especially in no-huddle). There are numerous times where after NE would have a big passing completion where they would either A) Double up on OZ zone and have 3rd and short or B) OZ, then power and then power again.

Haley was a little bit against the grain during his time in Pitt as he would make IZ/Power their base runs (in contrast to Arians who was an IZ/OZ then power as a change up) then throw counter in as his change up (and DeCastro would maul people)

This is what I was wondering... why not use them all? I understand that it takes time to install plays, but why not throw in various schemes? A play is a play, it's still X's and O's, who cares what scheme it's built on?

I'm sure there's much more to it than that. Hell, maybe we already do that and it just isn't often enough.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Armyofme

This is what I was wondering... why not use them all? I understand that it takes time to install plays, but why not throw in various schemes? A play is a play, it's still X's and O's, who cares what scheme it's built on?

I'm sure there's much more to it than that. Hell, maybe we already do that and it just isn't often enough.

Maybe because Andy builds on his plays throughout the season?

He has plays that I'm convinced aren't designed to score points or even really gain yards. But rather just to be on tape so that teams are aware of it when he uses that same action to rope-a-dope them into a big hitter when he needs it.

The more 'one-off' sort of plays you use, the less you can build on top of them. Especially if you're utilizing multiple systems.

[Chiefshrink]

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother

Clyde has over 7 YPC...

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother

The team is averaging 5 YPC as a whole so not sure what there is to cry about other than the occasional Andy special run play that blows up from time to timem

What don't you understand about DJ's comment below ??? I as well, really thought losing Hill might be a blessing in disguise to make defenses even more frustrated in 'pick your poison'. But it hasn't happened yet and why Schuster and Scantling are quiet to this point. BUT it is still early and chemistry is still being built SOOOO I will be patient for now. However, IF by 2/3rds of the way through the season these guys are still quiet and our run game rarely runs interior and is mediocre once again, I assure you we will NOT beat Buffalo. Great point DJ!!

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more.

[Sorter]

Also, I made the comment about us primarily running IZ in nickel.

Before the cutback rules, Philly with Kelly ran a **** ton of OZ out of the gun (you can tell based on the HB alignment)