I want our next HC to be the DC from the Pats

[Red Dawg]

that guy must be a miracle worker. They've had a ton of injuroes and still field a great defense. That's who I want after DV.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

I note, also, that I recently learned that Belichick tried to get Gunther to join him in NE as DC for the Pats BEFORE he had Crennel join him, so it's possible any Belichick disciple would gladly keep Gun on as his DC. If he has Belichick's respect...

BTW, What's the "book" on why Belicheck failed in Clevland?

[the Talking Can]

Originally Posted by UserName

Maybe. Having a defensive-minded head coach doesn't guarantee a good defense.

I wonder when Herm Edwards' contract is up. I'd love to have that guy replace Vermeil.

no way, I like herm, but his teams are the definition of inconsistant...plus, he hired Hackett....

[KCTitus]

And Raye...

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by the Talking Can

no way, I like herm, but his teams are the definition of inconsistant...plus, he hired Hackett....

At least he can draft. And he has a playoff win AND he's going to have, after this year, taken his teams to the playoffs 3 out of 4 years in a row.

Man can he draft. He's drafted a ton of great players. Pennington, Moss, LaMont Jordan, John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Dewayne Robertson...the list goes on and on. His FA moves have all been spot-on as well. Curtis Martin, Justin McCareins, Donnie Abraham.

I don't think he'd bring in Hackett either. Green isn't suited to a west coast offense.

[bideau]

Originally Posted by UserName

Maybe. Having a defensive-minded head coach doesn't guarantee a good defense.

I wonder when Herm Edwards' contract is up. I'd love to have that guy replace Vermeil.

And you'll get just as much crying

The other big name being tossed around was just mentioned, Nick Saban. He's a true Belichick disciple and they're very close friends. During this past offseason, BB went to LSU and spent several days discussing new coverage schemes with Saban. LSU has turned into a virtual farm team for the Pats with BB/Pioli relying heavily on Saban recommendations. One prime example is Randall Gay, rookie UDFA who's now starting and playing well.

Saban can flat out coach and some NFL team will be happy to have him.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by bideau

And you'll get just as much crying

The other big name being tossed around was just mentioned, Nick Saban. He's a true Belichick disciple and they're very close friends. During this past offseason, BB went to LSU and spent several days discussing new coverage schemes with Saban. LSU has turned into a virtual farm team for the Pats with BB/Pioli relying heavily on Saban recommendations. One prime example is Randall Gay, rookie UDFA who's now starting and playing well.

Saban can flat out coach and some NFL team will be happy to have him.

I wouldn't be totally opposed but I would like to have a guy who is established and, as I pointed out as had quite a bit of success. Plus he has some experience against the two most consistently good teams in the AFC, Indy and NE.

[the Talking Can]

Originally Posted by UserName

At least he can draft. And he has a playoff win AND he's going to have, after this year, taken his teams to the playoffs 3 out of 4 years in a row.

Man can he draft. He's drafted a ton of great players. Pennington, Moss, LaMont Jordan, John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Dewayne Robertson...the list goes on and on. His FA moves have all been spot-on as well. Curtis Martin, Justin McCareins, Donnie Abraham.

I don't think he'd bring in Hackett either. Green isn't suited to a west coast offense.

no gaurantee they're going to the playoffs this year...you're right about his drafts, mostly....which is why I think his teams should have been better, but they're schizo just like us....plus, he hired Hackett

[bideau]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

BTW, What's the "book" on why Belicheck failed in Clevland?

Three reasons:

1. He benched Bernie Kosar who was immensely popular with the fans and press even though he sucked. Testeverde got them to the playoffs in '94, but the fans have never forgiven him.

2. The team announced they're move to Baltimore 4 games into his last season. They were 3-1 at that point and coming off a playoff appearance. The team lost fan support and the players tanked the rest of the season.

3. The media hated him and still does. He had no media savvy back then. He'd rather get a bikini wax than talk to reporters. He's learned to deal with it since then.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by UserName

At least he can draft. And he has a playoff win AND he's going to have, after this year, taken his teams to the playoffs 3 out of 4 years in a row.

Man can he draft. He's drafted a ton of great players. Pennington, Moss, LaMont Jordan, John Abraham, Shaun Ellis, Dewayne Robertson...the list goes on and on. His FA moves have all been spot-on as well. Curtis Martin, Justin McCareins, Donnie Abraham.

you're all over the place on this.

1. Bradway is the Jets GM, and he is PURELY responsible for their talent acquisition, not Herm Edwards.

2. Curtis Martin was a Parcells pickup, not Bradway or Herm.

3. The 2000 Jets draft was a good one, but IIRC it was teh last year that Parcells was running the show. Al Groh was coach that year, after the whole "Parcells resigns, and then BB resigns as HC of the NYJ". In that draft they got Ellis, John Abraham and Pennington in the 1st round, plus Lavernues Coles in the 3rd. But I dont' think you can give that one to Bradway, and you DEFINITELY can't give it to Herm, who wasn't even with the team as HC at that point.

4. Dewayne Robertson MAY turn out to be pretty studly, but they gave up a sick number of picks for him.

5. Pennington seems to be good, but so far he's also (a) somewhat weak-armed, and (b) brittle as hell. I'm honestly not sure what his deal is, but we'll find out within a few years if he's just too glass-jawed to survive in the NFL.

6. I like the McCareins move too.

[KCTitus]

Originally Posted by bideau

Three reasons:

1. He benched Bernie Kosar who was immensely popular with the fans and press even though he sucked. Testeverde got them to the playoffs in '94, but the fans have never forgiven him.

2. The team announced they're move to Baltimore 4 games into his last season. They were 3-1 at that point and coming off a playoff appearance. The team lost fan support and the players tanked the rest of the season.

3. The media hated him and still does. He had no media savvy back then. He'd rather get a bikini wax than talk to reporters. He's learned to deal with it since then.

All of that has exactly ZERO to do with putting a quality product on the field or success in the NFL.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

you're all over the place on this.

1. Bradway is the Jets GM, and he is PURELY responsible for their talent acquisition, not Herm Edwards.

2. Curtis Martin was a Parcells pickup, not Bradway or Herm.

3. The 2000 Jets draft was a good one, but IIRC it was teh last year that Parcells was running the show. Al Groh was coach that year, after the whole "Parcells resigns, and then BB resigns as HC of the NYJ". In that draft they got Ellis, John Abraham and Pennington in the 1st round, plus Lavernues Coles in the 3rd. But I dont' think you can give that one to Bradway, and you DEFINITELY can't give it to Herm, who wasn't even with the team as HC at that point.

4. Dewayne Robertson MAY turn out to be pretty studly, but they gave up a sick number of picks for him.

5. Pennington seems to be good, but so far he's also (a) somewhat weak-armed, and (b) brittle as hell. I'm honestly not sure what his deal is, but we'll find out within a few years if he's just too glass-jawed to survive in the NFL.

6. I like the McCareins move too.

Well damn. Give me Bradway AND Edwards though. I think Edwards is like the coaching love child of Vermeil and Schottenheimer.

[Calcountry]

Originally Posted by Undertaker #59

Paying off the referees helps a bunch too.

That tightwad Lamar, he won't use his cap money, the least the cheap bastige could do is to make the annual payment to the Officials widow fund.

[bideau]

Originally Posted by KCTitus

All of that has exactly ZERO to do with putting a quality product on the field or success in the NFL.

The question was why BB failed in Cleveland. He only failed from the fans and media's perspective. By other measurements, his 1st three seasons were an overall success. He took a very bad Browns team to an 11-5 record and a playoff win (over the Parcells Pats) in his third season. That was before the cap and free agency as we know it. His last season started strong, but the distractions of the move was too much for any coach to overcome. Modell decided to can him because he wanted a "fresh start" in Baltimore.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by bideau

Three reasons:

1. He benched Bernie Kosar who was immensely popular with the fans and press even though he sucked. Testeverde got them to the playoffs in '94, but the fans have never forgiven him.

Right, and it's amazing. Testaverde was clearly better, but... Note, also, the parallel with what happened in NE with Bledsoe/Brady. In NE, however, Brady immediately led us to a SB victory, so everything was forgiven.

2. The team announced they're move to Baltimore 4 games into his last season. They were 3-1 at that point and coming off a playoff appearance. The team lost fan support and the players tanked the rest of the season.

3. The media hated him and still does. He had no media savvy back then. He'd rather get a bikini wax than talk to reporters. He's learned to deal with it since then.

I'll add a few more:

4. He didn't get along with Art Modell all that well. He's much better with Kraft.

5. He wasn't as good at delegating authority then. He tried to do everything and it was too much. Most important here is having Scott Pioli now, who knows EXACTLY what and how BB wants things done in terms of targetting players, and greatly relieves that burden from him.

I want to reemphasize point 2, above. BB in his first 3 years in Cleveland was pretty mediocre. In year 4, he went 11-5 and went to the playoffs, beat the Patriots in the wild card round and lost to someone (forget who) in the divisional round.

In year 5, they got off to a good start, but Modell announces the team is leaving and everything becomes a complete circus after that, and the team tanks.

Note that in year 6, the now Baltimore Ravens, with an extra first round draft pick inherited from a trade that BB made, pick a guy named Ray Lewis and from there it's off to the races.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by UserName

Well damn. Give me Bradway AND Edwards though. I think Edwards is like the coaching love child of Vermeil and Schottenheimer.

I seriously think Bradway is mediocre as hell. He got TOOLED in the offseason after 2002.

They have made a few good moves, however. Kevin Mawae is an underrated pickup, as he's an awesome C. Robertson looks like he'll be a good player, although they gave up 3 picks for him, which is a ton in this era.