Game of Thrones *Spoiler* Thread

[keg in kc]

There's been some recent confusion with the old spoiler thread, so I'm kicking off a new one for tonight's premiere. This is going to be the one for folks who've read all the books. So anything anybody might want to talk about is in bounds. Suffice to say, if you haven't read the books, you'll probably want to stay out of here until you do...

I'll bump the old spoiler-free thread shortly in case anybody's interested. For future reference the link to that one is here

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

1. Gives people to Qyburn to torture/experiment on, which the books clearly hints she knows about in some abstract way, but prefers not to think about.

2. has a massive superiority complex and looks down on anyone who isn't a Lannister.

3. arranges to kill her husband and the king, because he might find out about her and her bastard, incestuous children.

4. seemingly willing to sleep with any Lannister other than Tyrion.

5. Same as 2, really, but she just has a massive ego, and is a colossal bitch.

1. I'm sure Tywin has no idea what Gregor does with the people he sends him to.

2. Again, Tywin.

3. Littlefinger kills the Hand, kills the King, and kills his wife.

4. I don't really see why she should be hated for this.

5. Ok?

She hasn't done anything nearly as obscenely horrible as throwing a child from a window, but Jaime is much more well-liked. The main differences I see between Cercei and a lot of other, more well-received characters are:

1) She is a woman
2) Her insults are not as witty as Tywin/Tyrion/Littlefinger's would be.

[NewChief]

In the books, she's also bad because she's so inept while thinking she's adept. She bungles everything politically, makes tons of wrong decisions, trusts the wrong people, supports the wrong people, accuses the wrong people, and basically just makes a mess of everything while maintaining her self-assured superiority complex. She's completely unsuited for the role she's in (unlike Tywin, Tyrion, Littlefinger, etc..). It's kind of shitty for GRRM to write her that way but it's the way it is and gives some credence to the frequent accusations of misogyny in his writing.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

1. I'm sure Tywin has no idea what Gregor does with the people he sends him to.

2. Again, Tywin.

Wait, do you think Tywin is a good guy? I certainly don't. He's a cool character, but he's by no means a good guy.

3. Littlefinger kills the Hand, kills the King, and kills his wife.

4. I don't really see why she should be hated for this.

5. Ok?

She hasn't done anything nearly as obscenely horrible as throwing a child from a window, but Jaime is much more well-liked. The main differences I see between Cercei and a lot of other, more well-received characters are:

1) She is a woman
2) Her insults are not as witty as Tywin/Tyrion/Littlefinger's would be.

Jaime is not much more well liked by me, to be honest.

The issue with Cercei in the books is that she really has no redeeming features at all. Tyrion had a good quote in the show -- "You love your children. It's your one redeeming quality. That and your cheekbones."

Literally other than loving her children, she's completely contemptible. She seems to utterly lack any moral compass whatsoever.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by NewChief

In the books, she's also bad because she's so inept while thinking she's adept. She bungles everything politically, makes tons of wrong decisions, trusts the wrong people, supports the wrong people, accuses the wrong people, and basically just makes a mess of everything while maintaining her self-assured superiority complex. She's completely unsuited for the role she's in (unlike Tywin, Tyrion, Littlefinger, etc..). It's kind of shitty for GRRM to write her that way but it's the way it is and gives some credence to the frequent accusations of misogyny in his writing.

Another good quote from the show. Tywin to Cercei: "I don't distrust you because you're a woman. I distrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are."

[The Franchise]

I wonder if they'll start to turn Cersei's character around after Tywin dies.

[silver5liter]

I have to think they are setting her up to build confidence in people then crush them. No way they would just completely change her attitude.

[keg in kc]

Jamie's character develops and changes over time, while Cersei just becomes more....Cersei. And many of the worst things Jamie did were because of Cersei. His break from her is ultimately what begins whatever redemptive arc he may or may not have (since we have no earthly idea what's forthcoming).

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by NewChief

It's kind of shitty for GRRM to write her that way but it's the way it is and gives some credence to the frequent accusations of misogyny in his writing.

You could call it mysogynistic, but I'd tend to call it realistic. While not a historian, he has quite a grasp of history and how the world worked when it looked something like Westeros. Cersei (and other women characters) cannot help but be defined by the role of their gender in that world. Something which is clearly touched on in the books.

I think the difficulty is the genre that he's in, where you often get social commentaries or straight-up 'fantasy' where roles (gender and otherwise) are so often turned on their heads, whereas he's writing something that's more straight-forward, not trying to portray the people in his stories in a way that reflects that perfect fantasy version of what we wish our world was.

If that makes sense...

He's really writing something more akin to historical fiction in a lot of ways.

[NewChief]

Originally Posted by keg in kc

You could call it mysogynistic, but I'd tend to call it realistic. While not a historian, he has quite a grasp of history and how the world worked when it looked something like Westeros. Cersei (and other women characters) cannot help but be defined by the role of their gender in that world. Something which is clearly touched on in the books.

I think the difficulty is the genre that he's in, where you often get social commentaries or straight-up 'fantasy' where roles (gender and otherwise) are so often turned on their heads, whereas he's writing something that's more straight-forward, not trying to portray the people in his stories in a way that reflects that perfect fantasy version of what we wish our world was.

If that makes sense...

He's really writing something more akin to historical fiction in a lot of ways.

Yeah, I agree. I don't really have a problem with the supposed "misogyny," as I think he's writing in a misogynistic world. I do REALLY dislike what he's done with Dany in the last couple of books and find her to be the most problematic of his women characters as she moons about indecisively, feeling all angsty about her lovers.

[underEJ]

I really don't understand how she is seen as sympathetic. Her "love" of her children is as self-serving as anything else she does or feels. She uses her so called love for Joffery to advance her hatred of Tyrion. She knows she will need to influence Margaery to keep influence over Tommen so she is getting a head start on that. And now that the Lannister gold is limited, and they have tapped out the Tyrells, she will need a source. So she starts to buddy up to Oberyn, bonding over love of daughters.

She is vile in print or pixels.

[Pepe Silvia]

Look I know that Locke's spine was poking out of his shoulder but I think he will be fine and will be back to the battle next week.

[keg in kc]

Originally Posted by NewChief

Yeah, I agree. I don't really have a problem with the supposed "misogyny," as I think he's writing in a misogynistic world. I do REALLY dislike what he's done with Dany in the last couple of books and find her to be the most problematic of his women characters as she moons about indecisively, feeling all angsty about her lovers.

Yeah. And in doing so he's made her storyline boring, which seemed impossible after book 3.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Wait, do you think Tywin is a good guy? I certainly don't. He's a cool character, but he's by no means a good guy.




Jaime is not much more well liked by me, to be honest.

The issue with Cercei in the books is that she really has no redeeming features at all. Tyrion had a good quote in the show -- "You love your children. It's your one redeeming quality. That and your cheekbones."

Literally other than loving her children, she's completely contemptible. She seems to utterly lack any moral compass whatsoever.

No, Tywin is not a good guy. Why would I compare Cercei to a good guy?

Actually though, I'm having trouble determining good guy vs bad guy in this series. My favorite character has committed several murders, and is driven entirely by hate, yet is probably labeled as a good guy by most people.

If love for your children is completely dismissable as a positive character trait, that leaves a lot of other characters with significantly diminished resumes as well. Cough-Catelyn-cough. Also, love for your children is easily the most important characteristic for a mother to have, whether in ASOIAF or not.

Much is made of Cercei's failings, but she's been successful in a lot of ventures as well. She's been reigning as queen for a very long time, and she basically single handedly overthrew the Baratheon line and installed the Lannisters as the royal family.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by MagicHef

No, Tywin is not a good guy. Why would I compare Cercei to a good guy?

Actually though, I'm having trouble determining good guy vs bad guy in this series. My favorite character has committed several murders, and is driven entirely by hate, yet is probably labeled as a good guy by most people.

Frankly, this is precisely what Martin wants. He hates black/white, and wants everyone to have shades of gray. He specifically spoke out against Tolkien, where character are clearly either COMPLETELY good or COMPLETELY evil. And the concept that the "rightful king" is always a just, good and honest king who makes good laws and whom everyone loves. Martin thinks that stuff is the most ridiculous fantasy of all.

If love for your children is completely dismissable as a positive character trait, that leaves a lot of other characters with significantly diminished resumes as well. Cough-Catelyn-cough. Also, love for your children is easily the most important characteristic for a mother to have, whether in ASOIAF or not.

I don't really remember Catelyn doing anything particularly unpleasant, much less evil, in the books at all, other than perhaps being less than hospitable to Jon Snow (under fairly understandable circumstances).

Much is made of Cercei's failings, but she's been successful in a lot of ventures as well. She's been reigning as queen for a very long time, and she basically single handedly overthrew the Baratheon line and installed the Lannisters as the royal family.

All she did on that score was move up the timeline of what was inevitable already. Except that she had to commit murder to do it to cover up her incest.

[MagicHef]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Frankly, this is precisely what Martin wants. He hates black/white, and wants everyone to have shades of gray. He specifically spoke out against Tolkien, where character are clearly either COMPLETELY good or COMPLETELY evil. And the concept that the "rightful king" is always a just, good and honest king who makes good laws and whom everyone loves. Martin thinks that stuff is the most ridiculous fantasy of all.




I don't really remember Catelyn doing anything particularly unpleasant, much less evil, in the books at all, other than perhaps being less than hospitable to Jon Snow (under fairly understandable circumstances).



All she did on that score was move up the timeline of what was inevitable already. Except that she had to commit murder to do it to cover up her incest.

Catelyn has done her share of stupid/awful things. She convinced/forced Ned to accept the position of Hand. She took Tyrion hostage without any proof of guilt, resulting in Ned being attacked and injured, and his guards being killed, as well as giving Tywin a reason to burn the Riverlands. She allowed her crazy sister to take over the entire trial situation, resulting in her entire family looking like fools. She convinced Robb to place Roose Bolton in a position of authority. She undermined Robb's authority and weakened his strategic position by releasing Jaime. Crossing over to the blatantly evil side, she currently presides as judge, jury and executioner over extremely biased trials.

Yet, she's a good guy because of who her kids are.