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Old 11-11-2013, 08:35 PM  
RINGLEADER RINGLEADER is offline
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Shouldn't Safeties Be Worth More?

It's another way of getting the ball into the end zone after all. In most respects it's the hardest way to score points and even if you DO get the ball it seems a bit unfair to get only two measly points for such a big play,

Thoughts?
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Old 11-12-2013, 09:58 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
If a team starts at the 40 yard line, they will score 1.8 points, on average, for that possession.

If you figure that is the average starting point after a safety, then a safety is, in essence, a 3.8 point play.
I don't follow that because you essentially forced a turnover by getting the safety. You're double counting the effect of the actual play here. The new possession has nothing to do with the safety.


2 points is fair.
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:01 AM   #17
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
I don't follow that because you essentially forced a turnover by getting the safety. You're double counting the effect of the actual play here. The new possession has nothing to do with the safety.


2 points is fair.
You are just painfully stupid:

1) You get two points for the safety

2) The average field position after a safety is around the 40 yard line. That translates to an average of 1.8 points per possession.

2+1.8=3.8 points.

A safety may score you two points initially, but it's really worth 3.8 points.
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:13 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Demonpenz View Post
They also don't get to use a Tee so it is harder to onside kick and harder to cover
They can use a tee on the free kick if they so choose. Most don't due to the amount of hang time a punter gets vs a kicker, but they can.
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:21 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
You are just painfully stupid:

1) You get two points for the safety

2) The average field position after a safety is around the 40 yard line. That translates to an average of 1.8 points per possession.

2+1.8=3.8 points.

A safety may score you two points initially, but it's really worth 3.8 points.

Don't be stupid and irrational. They are independent. By your logic, a sack on 3rd down that forces the same punt from the same spot a safety does, should also be worth 1.8 points. And that's absurd.
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:23 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Old Dog View Post
They can use a tee on the free kick if they so choose. Most don't due to the amount of hang time a punter gets vs a kicker, but they can.
No. They can use a tee in high school and college on a free kick, but not in the NFL.
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:30 AM   #21
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My mistake, they can kick it rather than punt, but it must be held (like a FG) not on a tee. I guess a dropkick is legal as well, but I have never seen that.
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:42 AM   #22
'Hamas' Jenkins 'Hamas' Jenkins is offline
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Originally Posted by Prison Bitch View Post
Don't be stupid and irrational. They are independent. By your logic, a sack on 3rd down that forces the same punt from the same spot a safety does, should also be worth 1.8 points. And that's absurd.
It's not the spot from the punt, it's the starting average field position of the offense.

Teams that have a first down on the 40 score, on average, 1.8 points per possession.

If a team averages starting field possession on the 40, they will score, on average, 1.8 points on that possession. Sometimes they will score seven, sometimes they will score three, and often no points at all. But on average, they score that many points.

Thus, if you get the ball back on average at the 40 yard line, you can expect to score 1.8 points. Add that to the two points you've already scored, and you get 3.8 points.

You don't score 3.8 points with each safety, but on average, you will.
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Old 11-12-2013, 11:03 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
It's not the spot from the punt, it's the starting average field position of the offense.

Teams that have a first down on the 40 score, on average, 1.8 points per possession.

If a team averages starting field possession on the 40, they will score, on average, 1.8 points on that possession. Sometimes they will score seven, sometimes they will score three, and often no points at all. But on average, they score that many points.

Thus, if you get the ball back on average at the 40 yard line, you can expect to score 1.8 points. Add that to the two points you've already scored, and you get 3.8 points.

You don't score 3.8 points with each safety, but on average, you will.
This might be nit-picking, but if an offense is doing so poorly that they allow a safety, then they were probably going to be punting soon anyway, and with a punt its probably about the same field position.

Not always, sometimes absent the safety they would have gotten the first down and continued down the field, but a lot of times it was going to be a punt. So, maybe shave a little off the expected 3.8 but I do agree that a safety is probably worth at least slightly more than 3 points on average.
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Old 11-12-2013, 12:19 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins View Post
It's not the spot from the punt, it's the starting average field position of the offense.

Teams that have a first down on the 40 score, on average, 1.8 points per possession.

If a team averages starting field possession on the 40, they will score, on average, 1.8 points on that possession. Sometimes they will score seven, sometimes they will score three, and often no points at all. But on average, they score that many points.

Thus, if you get the ball back on average at the 40 yard line, you can expect to score 1.8 points. Add that to the two points you've already scored, and you get 3.8 points.

You don't score 3.8 points with each safety, but on average, you will.

I understand perfectly what you're saying. I just think there are limits to these type of Sabermetrics. A 3+Out that results in the possession from the same 40-yard line has the same 1.8 points of value then. So stopping the run on 1st down was worth what, 0.6 points? The incomplete pass another 0.6, the sack the final 0.6.


You can see how you can take the E(x) values here to mean far more than they really do.
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