Chiefs Rumor: Albert to the Dolphins

OldSchool · 03-10-2014, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

I was talking about finding a player who can be a star, present or future. Sheldon Richardson, Star Lotulelei (though I was not high on him at the draft, many were), Eric Reid,Ezekial Ansah are all examples of guys already playing at that level. And Tavon Austin, in Andy Reid's offense and with jamaal Charles drawing attention? He certainly would qualify as a skills player with "outstanding" potential.

You're talking about everything in retrospect.

Before the 2013 season, no one would have even considered any of those guys you mentioned at #1 overall. The only one I would have considered would've been Star but that quickly fell by the wayside after his heart condition was discovered.

In retrospect, Keenan Allen should have been the 1st WR taken.

Kiko Alonso should have gone in the top 10.

In retrospect, Tom Brady should have went #1 overall in his draft class.

People being pissed at the Fisher pick now are just being stupid. He was the only choice that would have really made sense at the time given how our roster looked and everything that we did in the off-season in terms of cleaning house, re-signing players, signing FAs, and how the draft prospects were shaping up both on and off the field.

htismaqe · 03-10-2014, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldSchool

You're talking about everything in retrospect.

Um yeah. It happened in the past, did it not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldSchool

Before the 2013 season, no one would have even considered any of those guys you mentioned at #1 overall. The only one I would have considered would've been Star but that quickly fell by the wayside after his heart condition was discovered.

That's what separates the winners from the also-rans. Finding guys that don't fit the mold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldSchool

People being pissed at the Fisher pick now are just being stupid. He was the only choice that would have really made sense at the time given how our roster looked and everything that we did in the off-season in terms of cleaning house, re-signing players, signing FAs, and how the draft prospects were shaping up both on and off the field.

Here's to another 2 decades of futility.

OldSchool · 03-10-2014, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Um yeah. It happened in the past, did it not.

That's what separates the winners from the also-rans. Finding guys that don't fit the mold.

Here's to another 2 decades of futility.

Yeah, no, we should have taken Geno Smith!

htismaqe · 03-10-2014, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldSchool

Yeah, no, we should have taken Geno Smith!

Except that I NEVER said that. I ***WANTED*** Geno Smith leading up to the draft.

After watching him play, I said that taking him CLEARLY would have been a MISTAKE.

Stop acting like a ****ing moron and stick to the actual argument.

OldSchool · 03-10-2014, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Except that I NEVER said that. I ***WANTED*** Geno Smith leading up to the draft.

After watching him play, I said that taking him CLEARLY would have been a MISTAKE.

Stop acting like a ****ing moron and stick to the actual argument.

I was just playing with you a little but I am being honest when I say that the fact that you, along with a lot of people on CP, wanted to draft Geno Smith just goes to prove my point.

There was no perfect prospect at #1 overall. Just look at the top 10 of that draft evaluated purely on a hit or miss basis based entirely upon their rookie season without taking injuries, possible future improvements, etc. into consideration:

1. Eric Fisher, OT - miss (played injured a lot and played poorly too often because of it, weak sauce as a rookie)
2. Luke Joeckel, OT - miss (inj. and poor play)
3. Dion Jordan, DE/OLB - miss (coaching decision/scheme fit)
4. Lane Johnson, OT - decent (inconsistent play and looked bad early on, got better as season progressed and became middle of the pack OT)
5. Ziggy Ansah, DE - decent (solid 8 sacks as a rookie, not spectacular but decent production)
6. Barkevious Mingo, OLB/DE- miss (disappointing rookie year especially considering all of the talent he is playing next to)
7. Jonathan Cooper, OL- miss (injury made him miss entire year)
8. Tavon Austin, WR- miss (really really weak player who will be nothing but a slot guy, Rams tried too hard to make it work with him on the outside)
9. Dee Milliner, CB- miss (sucked all season long, benched multiple times for a UDFA)
10. Chance Warmack, OG - miss (really inconsistent rookie season, just like almost all of the other top rookie OL players)

htismaqe · 03-10-2014, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldSchool

I was just playing with you a little but I am being honest when I say that the fact that you, along with a lot of people on CP, wanted to draft Geno Smith just goes to prove my point.

It doesn't prove anything. What we wanted to do before the draft has nothing at all to do with what the situation is now, with the benefit of hindsight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldSchool

There was no perfect prospect at #1 overall. Just look at the top 10 of that draft evaluated purely on a hit or miss basis based entirely upon their rookie season without taking injuries, possible future improvements, etc. into consideration:

1. Eric Fisher, OT - miss (played injured a lot and played poorly too often because of it, weak sauce as a rookie)
2. Luke Joeckel, OT - miss (inj. and poor play)
3. Dion Jordan, DE/OLB - miss (coaching decision/scheme fit)
4. Lane Johnson, OT - decent (inconsistent play and looked bad early on, got better as season progressed and became middle of the pack OT)
5. Ziggy Ansah, DE - decent (solid 8 sacks as a rookie, not spectacular but decent production)
6. Barkevious Mingo, OLB/DE- miss (disappointing rookie year especially considering all of the talent he is playing next to)
7. Jonathan Cooper, OL- miss (injury made him miss entire year)
8. Tavon Austin, WR- miss (really really weak player who will be nothing but a slot guy, Rams tried too hard to make it work with him on the outside)
9. Dee Milliner, CB- miss (sucked all season long, benched multiple times for a UDFA)
10. Chance Warmack, OG - miss (really inconsistent rookie season, just like almost all of the other top rookie OL players)

Any of the non-OL would have been better picks than Fisher. Literally any of them.

OldSchool · 03-10-2014, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

It doesn't prove anything. What we wanted to do before the draft has nothing at all to do with what the situation is now, with the benefit of hindsight.

Well, yeah? We should have drafted Brady in the 1st when he came out? There's a ton of stuff you can say we should have done with hindsight, which is why it's stupid to try to make an argument using hindsight. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

Your problem is that your entire argument is based on fantasy whereas mine is based on facts.

I'm just telling you that Dorsey pretty much made the only choice that he could have made with the cards that were dealt to him without the benefit of "hindsight".

**The Franchise** · 03-10-2014, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldSchool

I was just playing with you a little but I am being honest when I say that the fact that you, along with a lot of people on CP, wanted to draft Geno Smith just goes to prove my point.

There was no perfect prospect at #1 overall. Just look at the top 10 of that draft evaluated purely on a hit or miss basis based entirely upon their rookie season without taking injuries, possible future improvements, etc. into consideration:

1. Eric Fisher, OT - miss (played injured a lot and played poorly too often because of it, weak sauce as a rookie)
2. Luke Joeckel, OT - miss (inj. and poor play)
3. Dion Jordan, DE/OLB - miss (coaching decision/scheme fit)
4. Lane Johnson, OT - decent (inconsistent play and looked bad early on, got better as season progressed and became middle of the pack OT)
5. Ziggy Ansah, DE - decent (solid 8 sacks as a rookie, not spectacular but decent production)
6. Barkevious Mingo, OLB/DE- miss (disappointing rookie year especially considering all of the talent he is playing next to)
7. Jonathan Cooper, OL- miss (injury made him miss entire year)
8. Tavon Austin, WR- miss (really really weak player who will be nothing but a slot guy, Rams tried too hard to make it work with him on the outside)
9. Dee Milliner, CB- miss (sucked all season long, benched multiple times for a UDFA)
10. Chance Warmack, OG - miss (really inconsistent rookie season, just like almost all of the other top rookie OL players)

So everyone was pretty much a miss. You're dumb.

htismaqe · 03-10-2014, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pestilence

So everyone was pretty much a miss. You're dumb.

At least our miss was safe. Didn't put anybody's eye out with that dart.

mcaj22 · 03-10-2014, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldSchool

I was just playing with you a little but I am being honest when I say that the fact that you, along with a lot of people on CP, wanted to draft Geno Smith just goes to prove my point.

There was no perfect prospect at #1 overall. Just look at the top 10 of that draft evaluated purely on a hit or miss basis based entirely upon their rookie season without taking injuries, possible future improvements, etc. into consideration:

1. Eric Fisher, OT - miss (played injured a lot and played poorly too often because of it, weak sauce as a rookie)
2. Luke Joeckel, OT - miss (inj. and poor play)
3. Dion Jordan, DE/OLB - miss (coaching decision/scheme fit)
4. Lane Johnson, OT - decent (inconsistent play and looked bad early on, got better as season progressed and became middle of the pack OT)
5. Ziggy Ansah, DE - decent (solid 8 sacks as a rookie, not spectacular but decent production)
6. Barkevious Mingo, OLB/DE- miss (disappointing rookie year especially considering all of the talent he is playing next to)
7. Jonathan Cooper, OL- miss (injury made him miss entire year)
8. Tavon Austin, WR- miss (really really weak player who will be nothing but a slot guy, Rams tried too hard to make it work with him on the outside)
9. Dee Milliner, CB- miss (sucked all season long, benched multiple times for a UDFA)
10. Chance Warmack, OG - miss (really inconsistent rookie season, just like almost all of the other top rookie OL players)

that's a little deceptive, you have to show the guys that slipped out of the top 10.

11 San Diego Chargers D. J. Fluker OT -(hit)
12 Oakland Raiders D. J. Hayden CB -(miss)/injured
13 New York Jets Sheldon Richardson DT -(hit) stud
14 Carolina Panthers Star Lotulelei DT -(hit) stud
15 New Orleans Saints Kenny Vaccaro S -(hit)
16 Buffalo Bills E. J. Manuel QB -(?)/injured
17 Pittsburgh Steelers Jarvis Jones LB -decent, could turn into a hit because they just cut Woodley.
18 San Francisco 49ers Eric Reid† S -(hit)
19 New York Giants Justin Pugh OT -okay
20 Chicago Bears Kyle Long† G -(hit) stud

OldSchool · 03-10-2014, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcaj22

that's a little deceptive, you have to show the guys that slipped out of the top 10.

11 San Diego Chargers D. J. Fluker OT -(hit) For a RT, yes, at LT he looked like crud.
12 Oakland Raiders D. J. Hayden CB -(miss)/injured
13 New York Jets Sheldon Richardson DT -(hit) stud
14 Carolina Panthers Star Lotulelei DT -(hit) stud
15 New Orleans Saints Kenny Vaccaro S -(hit) was solid all around but not exceptional
16 Buffalo Bills E. J. Manuel QB -(?)/injured wasn't even the best QB on his team
17 Pittsburgh Steelers Jarvis Jones LB -decent, could turn into a hit because they just cut Woodley. Had 1 sack, miss
18 San Francisco 49ers Eric Reid† S -(hit)
19 New York Giants Justin Pugh OT -okay Another "meh" guy, part of the terrible Giants OL so not much to write home about
20 Chicago Bears Kyle Long† G -(hit) stud Wasn't quite as good as people think but he was certainly among the best rookie OL men at OG

The hit rate was, at best, still around only 50% for the top 20. That's terrible odds that high in the draft.

Eleazar · 03-10-2014, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldSchool

2. Luke Joeckel, OT - miss (inj. and poor play)

Joeckel is already a miss after playing 4 games and part of another?

Poor play? They felt confident enough in his play at RT to trade away Eugene Monroe and move him to left tackle. He gave up a few sacks, but he was playing at RT, where he'd never played before.

He got his leg rolled up on by a defensive lineman in the Rams game and broke his ankle. That does not make him brittle. It probably would have happened to anyone.

Did you actually see him play a down this year outside of the KC game, or are you just pulling things out of the air?

OldSchool · 03-10-2014, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cochise

Joeckel is already a miss after playing 4 games and part of another?

Poor play? They felt confident enough in his play at RT to trade away Eugene Monroe and move him to left tackle. He gave up a few sacks, but he was playing at RT, where he'd never played before.

He got his leg rolled up on by a defensive lineman in the Rams game and broke his ankle. That does not make him brittle. It probably would have happened to anyone.

Did you actually see him play a down this year outside of the KC game, or are you just pulling things out of the air?

Yup, Joeckel played worse than Fisher in the games that he started. He's a miss due to his injury, meaning he contributed little in his rookie year. Jags were fools to let Monroe go.