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Old 10-12-2015, 08:54 PM  
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***Official 2015 STL Cardinals Thread III.***
2011 World Series Championship
2012 NLCS. One win from another WS appearance.
2013 World Series. Two wins from another World Series Championship
2014 NLCS. Three wins from another WS appearance
2015 Central Division title. Won 100 games. Lost in the NLDS.

  • Made the postseason 11 times in the last 15 seasons.
  • Only 1 losing season since 2000.
  • Reached the World Series 4 times since 2004 and won as many championships (two) the past eight seasons as it did from 1965 to 2005.
  • Made the NLCS 9 times including the last 4 years 2011-2014
  • Three million attendance? Take it to the bank.
  • 65 post season wins since 2004. 22+ wins more than any other team.
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Old 12-10-2015, 04:02 PM   #886
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Heyward is a player that I would throw in a player opt clause after year 4. I would take my chances to get his best 4 WAR years and let somebody else pay for the latter years.
And if he doesnt opt out?
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Old 12-10-2015, 04:16 PM   #887
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Heyward is a player that I would throw in a player opt clause after year 4. I would take my chances to get his best 4 WAR years and let somebody else pay for the latter years.
Opt out clauses are for when things go poorly.

All an opt-out clause is take away the only advantage that team gains in a long-term contract - the possibility of getting a player below market in exchange for long-term security.

When you guarantee a player the best of both words; both the long-term security of getting paid even if you suck or get hurt AND the ability to opt out early and remove the long-term advantages to the team, then you've pretty much taken all benefit to the team out of the deal.

If Heyward hits 30 and his speed/defense decline (extremely likely given standard player aging curves), he's going to still be hitting like a 2bman and he's going to have probably $26 million/yr ahead of him. The Cards, meanwhile, are stuck with a declining player.

Unless the Cardinals are paying him above market, he'll opt out. If they're paying him above market, he'll stick with the deal. Either way, the Cards aren't going to benefit.

Ask the Dodgers if they were happy to see Greinke opt out. Or the Rangers if they're excited that Andrus is unlikely to exercise his opt out. They're nothing but downside.
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Old 12-10-2015, 04:24 PM   #888
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$24M per year for a guy that doesn't hit for power, average, or drive in runs?

No thanks.
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Old 12-10-2015, 04:37 PM   #889
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$24M per year for a guy that doesn't hit for power, average, or drive in runs?

No thanks.
And seems to have actively sabotaged his ability to drive the baseball.

As a baseball fan, I want the guy to go somewhere like the Rangers or even the Astros where a more aggressive hitting philosophy could unlock the power potential that just oozes out of the guy (though Magadan is in Arizona now; dunno who Texas's hitting coach is these days). Sadly, I'm pretty sure Chicago would also be one of those places.

St. Louis is just an awful, awful place to get maximum performance out of him. All the horrid things he does to his swing to shorten it and ensure contact are right in Mabry's wheelhouse. Granted, Mabry wouldn't actively teach that horseshit but because it's getting the 'avoid negative outcomes' results that Mabry espouses, he's not going to actively attempt to break Heyward of them either.

He has $25 million AAV talent, but he won't reach it in St. Louis. Hell, he may not reach it anywhere, but if he does he'll somehow end up being a bargain for whoever signs him.
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Old 12-10-2015, 04:39 PM   #890
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And seems to have actively sabotaged his ability to drive the baseball.

As a baseball fan, I want the guy to go somewhere like the Rangers or even the Astros where a more aggressive hitting philosophy could unlock the power potential that just oozes out of the guy (though Magadan is in Arizona now; dunno who Texas's hitting coach is these days). Sadly, I'm pretty sure Chicago would also be one of those places.

St. Louis is just an awful, awful place to get maximum performance out of him. All the horrid things he does to his swing to shorten it and ensure contact are right in Mabry's wheelhouse. Granted, Mabry wouldn't actively teach that horseshit but because it's getting the 'avoid negative outcomes' results that Mabry espouses, he's not going to actively attempt to break Heyward of them either.

He has $25 million AAV talent, but he won't reach it in St. Louis. Hell, he may not reach it anywhere, but if he does he'll somehow end up being a bargain for whoever signs him.
This is my concern with letting him walk.

Why can't they just put him with Mueller and have him avoid Mabry like the plague
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Old 12-10-2015, 04:45 PM   #891
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This is my concern with letting him walk.

Why can't they just put him with Mueller and have him avoid Mabry like the plague
I just can't get myself to care about the possibility of him going elsewhere and shredding creation because I know it won't happen here.

And the reason why they won't fire Mabry is obvious - Mike Matheny.

What sense is there in worrying about a player we'd have never had in STL? It's like people that got bent out of shape when Flowers went to SD - why? He wasn't going to be worth a shit in KC anymore; his ability simply didn't match the coaching staff/scheme. I'd say the same thing about people that are still pissing and moaning about Rich Gannon as though he'd have been the same guy under Marty that he was under Gruden, but that's just picking at (stupid) scabs.

The Cardinals should be willing to pay for what they'll have, not what they'd miss out on. They were in the driver's seat for Joe Maddon and refused to move on from a braindead concussion case to get him so it's obvious that we're stuck with Matheny until he loses 90 games. As long as we're stuck with Matheny, we'll be stuck with Mabry.

So why worry about who Jason Heyward could be? He won't be that here.
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Old 12-10-2015, 05:24 PM   #892
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And the reason why they won't fire Mabry is obvious - Mike Matheny.
I don't know about that, Mo has traded some major bible study regulars this off season. He traded the popular in the locker room Craig/Kelly. He let Pujols go. He has pulled the trigger on unpopular in the dugout moves.

I think Matheny is bulletproof as the manager for at least 4-5 years now, no matter what we do on the field. He was just the runner up for manager of the year this season. I don't think Mabry is bulletproof for the next 4-5 years.
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Old 12-10-2015, 06:04 PM   #893
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Old 12-10-2015, 06:05 PM   #894
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Broxton stays.

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Old 12-10-2015, 06:09 PM   #895
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I just can't get myself to care about the possibility of him going elsewhere and shredding creation because I know it won't happen here.
This kind of money we can get Davis and put Piscotty in RF.
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Old 12-10-2015, 06:10 PM   #896
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****ing broxton? Really?

Just give the tui that spot and be done with it
This makes no sense, he's as worthless now as Choate, just a harder throwing version.
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Old 12-10-2015, 06:24 PM   #897
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Broxton is worthless
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Old 12-10-2015, 06:43 PM   #898
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Broxton is worthless
This is a head scratcher for sure.
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Old 12-10-2015, 07:35 PM   #899
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Literally listening to Cubs fans praying for the Cubs to do what it takes to sign Heyward because he's just as valuable a player as a guy like Rizzo.
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Old 12-10-2015, 08:09 PM   #900
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Literally listening to Cubs fans praying for the Cubs to do what it takes to sign Heyward because he's just as valuable a player as a guy like Rizzo.
WTF? You guys have some good options in the OF already. Pitching is your need.
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