Chiefs tag Ford

[The Franchise]

The #Chiefs have franchise tagged Dee Ford, source said. Another pass rusher off the open market.

— Tom Pelissero (@TomPelissero) March 4, 2019

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Dee Ford is a risk, i understand that. His production is not debateable. His health is.



That's it. The only "IF" for Dee Ford is IF he can stay healthy.



I'd rather gamble for a year and take a chance at excellence than saddle myself with medicority for the next 3+ years. If Ford doesn't work out, we wash our hands. If Flowers doesn't work out? Tough shit, deal with it.



And contract talk is moot because we have no idea what Flowers will get. There's a very real chance he gets more than what you're projecting.

Health isn’t the only risk with Ford, though. I disagree.

He’s a huge risk to continue being an easily exploitable defender because he’s one dimensional and not very smart.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Dee Ford is a risk, i understand that. His production is not debateable. His health is.

That's it. The only "IF" for Dee Ford is IF he can stay healthy.

I'd rather gamble for a year and take a chance at excellence than saddle myself with medicority for the next 3+ years. If Ford doesn't work out, we wash our hands. If Flowers doesn't work out? Tough shit, deal with it.

And contract talk is moot because we have no idea what Flowers will get. There's a very real chance he gets more than what you're projecting.

Again, I'm looking at this as a probability curve.

Flowers has had 7 sacks each and every year as a pro. The probability of him getting 13 is low. The probability of him getting none is also low.

In Dee Ford's case, the probability of him getting 13 again is the same as him getting zero again.

You keep saying "if" he's healthy. He's really never been healthy outside of last year. So again, you're betting on something that hasn't really happened.

What it comes down to is a value judgement. You want to invest in global emerging markets. You're okay with losing all of your money because of the chance of making millions.

I'll stick with my diversified funds. I won't ever have the possibility of being a billionaire like you but I also have zero chance of ever being broke, like you. I'll be comfortable for the rest of my life.

And that's what this comes down to, as I said before. This isn't about Dee Ford. It's about US. It's about the core of our character and what we value.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by O.city

So Bill is just gonna let him walk? If he's that good and important but Bill is letting him walk, that's not a red flag?

Bill has let dozens of players walk that were studs after leaving NE. Come on man. That's not an argument.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

I don’t see a huge dropoff in pressure on the QB swapping Ford for Flowers. Flowers had 78 last year, just six fewer than Ford’s league-leading 78.

So... to sum...

Flowers is younger, healthier, cheaper, more complete, and produced 93 percent as much pressure last year as Ford.

Healthier yes. Younger, barely. More complete? Says who? Cheaper? Supposedly but im not convinced.

And Flowers was on the best coached defensive team too. Ford wasn't afforded such a luxury.

[O.city]

The problem with that mentality is that you are going to have to pay similar for each in this free agent market.

If I could get a guy like Flowers for 10 mil per year, i'd have no problem with it. Maybe they can.

But you can't go paying that much for a guy that doesn't have the high ceiling, similar as you can't go paying Ford because of injury concerns.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Bill has let dozens of players walk that were studs after leaving NE. Come on man. That's not an argument.

Sure, 3rd contract guys. Not guys at the same point as Flowers coming off his rookie deal.

And who are the studs?

Chandler JOnes? Sure, but he traded him after he showed up high to the police station naked.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

Health isn’t the only risk with Ford, though. I disagree.

He’s a huge risk to continue being an easily exploitable defender because he’s one dimensional and not very smart.

More tackles than Flowers. He was better at nearly every measurable category so i don't know where you're getting this from.

Grass isn't always greener.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by O.city

The problem with that mentality is that you are going to have to pay similar for each in this free agent market.

If I could get a guy like Flowers for 10 mil per year, i'd have no problem with it. Maybe they can.

But you can't go paying that much for a guy that doesn't have the high ceiling, similar as you can't go paying Ford because of injury concerns.

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. If Ford was getting a LTD, he wouldn't be getting a 2019 cap hit of $16M.

It's not about AAV, it's NEVER been about AAV. It's been about the 2019 salary cap.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. If Ford was getting a LTD, he wouldn't be getting a 2019 cap hit of $16M.

It's not about AAV, it's NEVER been about AAV. It's been about the 2019 salary cap.

I know, I understand.

But it's still not going to be substantially less. I mean, he's going to get his singing bonus and guaranteed money. Even if they lower the single year cap hit, you've got to pay for it at some point.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by O.city

I know, I understand.

But it's still not going to be substantially less. I mean, he's going to get his singing bonus and guaranteed money. Even if they lower the single year cap hit, you've got to pay for it at some point.

And I simply don't care. This team was one penalty away from a Super Bowl. Their offensive roster is never going to be both this good and this cheap ever again.

It is absolutely critical for them to be Super Bowl bound in 2019. If I'm in charge, I'm doing everything with that goal in mind, including not giving Dee Ford $16M of the cap.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

And I simply don't care. This team was one penalty away from a Super Bowl. Their offensive roster is never going to be both this good and this cheap ever again.

It is absolutely critical for them to be Super Bowl bound in 2019. If I'm in charge, I'm doing everything with that goal in mind, including not giving Dee Ford $16M of the cap.

But Dee Ford having the year he did got them to being that close to the SB.

You seem to ignore that.

They needed that production to get where they got. Now, maybe they can supplant that and get it elsewhere.

Once you've said you don't care though, seems theres no point in this discussion anymore.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by O.city

But Dee Ford having the year he did got them to being that close to the SB.

You seem to ignore that.

They needed that production to get where they got. Now, maybe they can supplant that and get it elsewhere.

Once you've said you don't care though, seems theres no point in this discussion anymore.

Spending that $16M on the secondary would not only replace his production, it would probably upgrade it.

The simple fact is that 13 sacks isn't THAT great in most years and sacks are irrelevant completely if you can't cover.

It's a fundamental disagreement that's just not going to get solved here. I don't value outside pass rushers the way some others do. I think Chris Jones is FAR more important than Dee Ford and I would gladly trade Dee Ford for any number of CB's or S's because they're simply more important in today's game.

I don't expect anybody to agree with me but likewise, don't expect me to change my stance. I have plenty of evidence to back me up, I don't just pull stuff out of my keister.

[saphojunkie]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Well it's the Dee Ford thread....i mean...

We have different approaches. You think $13M+/ 3-5yrs for 7.5 sack Trey Flowers is less risky than 13 sack Dee Ford for 1yr $15M

I don't see how, but ok.

Because Dee Ford has shown he can give you a season with zero sacks. He's done it multiple times.

Flowers is consistent, which is something fans don't give a shit about, but every single ****ing NFL coach values above virtually everything else.

[ToxSocks]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Spending that $16M on the secondary would not only replace his production, it would probably upgrade it.

One player. That's what either Collins or Thomas will cost. Awesome. Now we have to fill hole vacated by Ford/Houston. [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

I think Chris Jones is FAR more important than Dee Ford .

Sure, but this isn't about Jones vs Ford. Yes, in today's NFL interior pass rush is where it's at. Besides, Jones had zero sacks against Brady too.

Pass rush still matters. Not every team is the Patriots. You'll remember that again when the Chiefs cant rush the passer and the QB has all day to pick apart our high priced secondary.

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

More tackles than Flowers. He was better at nearly every measurable category so i don't know where you're getting this from.



Grass isn't always greener.

Ford’s tackle totals don’t mean a thing in comparison. Yeah, he had more. What was the average depth of the tackle?

Flowers didn’t play Lb. he was never dropped into coverage.

Where I’m getting what? That he isn’t a liability in the run game?

I’ve watched the Patriots play a bunch. Flowers is assignment sound and seals his edge like he’s asked to. He doesn’t get wam -blocked completely off his edge by slot WRs.

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Healthier yes. Younger, barely. More complete? Says who? Cheaper? Supposedly but im not convinced.



And Flowers was on the best coached defensive team too. Ford wasn't afforded such a luxury.

Two years difference in age is HUGE when you’re talking about 4-5 year deals. Flowers would be 30 entering his Year 5 season. Ford would be 32.

I say he’s more complete. Dee Ford is hot garbage in the run game, unless he’s pursuing from the back side. But you can line up and steamroll him, so that back side help doesn’t do much for you.