Chiefs Patrick Mahomes is entering his Donovan McNabb era - Page 3

Realbaddog · 12-12-2023, 05:02 PM

Found this, didn't see it posted prior:

The Kansas City Chiefs can point to a myriad of issues behind their offensive struggles, including Matt Nagy’s playcalling, but their rapid disarmament over the last two years has hit them where it hurts. If you’re searching for a culprit for Kansas City’s offensive demise and fall from top 10 in scoring for the first time since 2016, their wideouts have already been caught holding the bloody knife on the gridiron over the Super Bowl champions’ body. Patrick Mahomes, king of the tight spiral, discovered this season that he, too, is subject to the whims of his wideouts. For the second time in a matter of weeks, a Chiefs receiver has become the main NFL Twitter protagonist after butchering a miraculous Mahomes play on national television.

Kadarius Toney provided a glimpse into what type of season this would be in the Chiefs season-opening loss to the Detroit Lions. That night featured a perfect trinity of drops by Toney including his pièce de résistance in the final two minutes, on a bobbled pass that should have put the Chiefs in position to win. Lightning struck again when Marquez Valdes-Scantling dropped a deep bomb inside Philly’s 5 on one of the final plays of their Week 11 loss to the Eagles. On Sunday, Toney treated the line of scrimmage like an abstract concept, lined up offsides and wiped out the highlight of his and Kelce’s careers. The Chiefs offense is spiraling and the calls are coming from inside the house.

The root of this period of discontent has been Kansas City’s neglect in drafting or signing an elite receiver for Mahomes. It’s analogous to New England’s miscalculations in evaluating offensive skill positions during Tom Brady’s twilight with the Pats refusing to draft a wideout in the first round.

Reid has experimented with this method of team-building around cardboard cutout receivers before and it failed. Welcome to the Donovan McNabb experience. During Reid’s early years at the helm of the Philadelphia Eagles, he surrounded McNabb with flotsam at receiver, developed Brian Westbrook into an amorphous multi-purpose back who could create splash plays at receiver or in the run game.

The McNabb era in Philadelphia was defined by McNabb’s hero ball despite receivers who dropped the ball like they had carpal tunnel. The one season Philadelphia was gracious enough to bless him with Terrell Owens resulted in Philadelphia advancing past the NFC Championship in their fourth try and reaching the Super Bowl in McNabb and T.O.’s only full season together.

It was a near perfect storm that resulted in McNabb setting career-highs in yardage, yards-per-attempt, touchdowns and quarterback rating. Mahomes’ career has been the inverse of McNabb’s. He is a superior quarterback in nearly every way above the shoulders than McNabb, but Philadelphia’s bayonet offense forced McNabb to do considerably more of the dirty work than Mahomes has had to do with Tyreek Hill, Sammy Watkins and Travis Kelce creating separation downfield in the Chiefs high-octane attack.

McNabb was haunted by the follies of his wide receivers. Freddie Mitchell thanking god for his hands was the highlight of his Eagles career. James Thrash dropped a crucial pass in the 2004 NFC title game that cost the Eagles a trip to the Super Bowl, months before they acquired Owens. Staley and Todd Pinkston were denizens of Drop City during that championship loss to the Rams, while McNabb gutted it out for nearly three quarters with injured ribs.

In Owens’ shadow, Mitchell and Pinkston were the only Eagles receivers to reel in touchdowns for Philadelphia during their Super Bowl campaign, catching a grand total of three. Philadelphia should erect a monument to the heavy lifting McNabb did with such a mediocre cast of receivers.

During his stint in Philly, Westbrook, Pinkston, Chad Lewis, L.J. Smith, Thrash, Staley and Reggie Brown were his leading receivers. There isn’t a single 1,000-yard receiving season between the three of them. Not a single one. McNabb molded masterpieces from clay and dung.

Kansas City’s contemporary receivers highlight the importance of having competent hands in your lineup. For years, NFL cognoscenti have made it their mission to minimize the effect a great receiving corps can have on an offense spearheaded by a quarterback deity. Great offense is a polytheistic exercise. If anything, Kansas City’s shortcomings should only strengthen Tyreek Hill’s MVP case.

One season of this is enough. Kansas City can’t afford to prolong Mahomes and the passing attack’s suffering. If this season has taught us anything, it’s that while Reid has secured a slot in Canton after starting over in Kansas City, we should put a lot more respect on Donovan McNabb’s name and it should serve as a warning for Reid not to repeat his mistakes of that era.

Link: https://deadspin.com/patrick-mahomes...efs-1851094149

Red Dawg · 12-12-2023, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I could've sworn that Desean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin played for the Eagles with McNabb. I guess this writer disagrees.

TO as well. It wasn't shit every year. Westbrook was a great RB as well. So was Shady.

MahomesMagic · 12-12-2023, 06:43 PM

In a 2016 Sports Illustrated article, Jenny Vrentas took a deep look into interviews for NFL head coaching jobs.

Reid was one of the coaches to whom Vrentas spoke, and Reid said that when he interviewed to become head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles, he told them what he needed to build a winning football team:

I want two offensive tackles, a quarterback, two pass rushers, two corners, and I’ll figure the rest out.
Notice something about this list? Reid doesn’t say he needs a wide receiver. Not even one.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/01/19/nf...-jenny-vrentas

Now that was almost 25 years ago. Has Reid evolved on this?

The Tyreek trade fits the exact parameters Reid outlined where they trade the unicorn WR and use it to move up for a premium corner.

In today's current NFL I would argue that Reid's list was pretty close but WR should be on it.

You want to pass the ball and stop the other team from passing.

So QB, WR's on the offense.

Pass-Rushers and +Coverage Defensive Backs on defense.

The OL is constructed based on the QB. A traditional pocket passer you probably do get 2 good tackles and fill in the rest. A mobile QB like Mahomes who has elite feel and pocket movement you might just want to do what we did, elite Guard Center Guard and get adequate players at tackle.

ToxSocks · 12-12-2023, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staylor26

You're being emotional about this.

You would have zero issue if they took Pickens and Rice the last 2 years. You wouldn't give a **** that it was 2 2nd round picks and not a trade up in the 1st.

Again, look at the approaches to the WR group vs the OL (twice), DL and DB's. Night and day.

The Pickens example is just another example of them not really attacking the group the way they have with other position groups. Instead of taking BPA, they traded down.

On top of that, they traded down for a guy who was never going to have the skillset to be an Alpha perimeter receiver.

staylor26 · 12-12-2023, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Again, look at the approaches to the WR group vs the OL (twice), DL and DB's. Night and day.

The Pickens example is just another example of them not really attacking the group the way they have with other position groups. Instead of taking BPA, they traded down.

On top of that, they traded down for a guy who was never going to have the skillset to be an Alpha perimeter receiver.

Lol yea you're definitely being emotional and illogical about this. No point in trying to reason with you I guess.

They drafted a WR in the 2nd round 2 years in a row. They aren't ****ing ignoring the position. They just missed badly on one. That's the fair criticism, not a lack of investment.

IowaHawkeyeChief · 12-12-2023, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Again, look at the approaches to the WR group vs the OL (twice), DL and DB's. Night and day.

The Pickens example is just another example of them not really attacking the group the way they have with other position groups. Instead of taking BPA, they traded down.

On top of that, they traded down for a guy who was never going to have the skillset to be an Alpha perimeter receiver.

Pickens was never on their board. The guys a head case, and its showing in Pittsburgh. Could Mahomes and Kelce help keep him in line, who knows, Tomlin can't. Again, look at the WR's taken ahead of Pickens, then Skyy, then all those after Skyy. It wasn't a good draft round 2-7 for a receiver, period.

Oh and they addressed the Oline, because Mahomes is worth protecting. If you can't protect him it doesn't matter who's running routes as the 2021 Superbowl showed. And yes, we addressed the defense because we sucked there. Even if we get on a streak and make a run this year, I'm fairly confident they will address the WR group to some degree.

ToxSocks · 12-12-2023, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staylor26

Lol yea you're definitely being emotional and illogical about this. No point in trying to reason with you I guess.

They drafted a WR in the 2nd round 2 years in a row. They aren't ****ing ignoring the position. They just missed badly on one. That's the fair criticism, not a lack of investment.

I keep asking you to compare the approaches.

Fine, someone else compare the approaches. OL/DB/DL/WR....one of these is not like the others...

staylor26 · 12-12-2023, 06:50 PM

"Instead of taking BPA, they traded down"

This is just nonsense. Sure, you could certainly argue that Pickens was BPA and they should've just taken him.

But you're assuming that he was BPA on their board. There are multiple reasons to believe that probably wasn't the case. The trade down said more about how they felt about the WRs available, and less about how they feel about the WR postion.

The fact that they aggressively traded up for Rice in the 2nd this year clearly proves that.

**cabletech94** · 12-12-2023, 06:52 PM

Sometimes, it’s okay not to post an article.

J/S

ToxSocks · 12-12-2023, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staylor26

The fact that they aggressively traded up for Rice in the 2nd this year clearly proves that.

They traded up 8 spots....i mean....wasn't THAT aggressive.

staylor26 · 12-12-2023, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detoxing

I keep asking you to compare the approaches.

Fine, someone else compare the approaches. OL/DB/DL/WR....one of these is not like the others...

Funny that you mention DB because that's a position that everybody thought they would never invest highly in based on Veach's first few seasons. They've invested highly in exactly one guy at the position.

As for "OL/DL", what you really mean is OT and DE. Premium positions that aren't easy to fill with a 2nd round pick. It is much easier to find a stud WR in the 2nd than a stud OT or DE.

And I keep going back to Rice. They could've just as easily taken Rice in the 1st, and we aren't having this argument. There was actually a report recently that they would've taken Rice if FAU wasn't there. What difference does it really make? They got a stud and a possible WR1 (top notch WR2 at worst).

Did Reid taking DJax in the 2nd and not the 1st prove that he wasn't prioritizing the WR position in Philly? This is just nonsensical.

staylor26 · 12-12-2023, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detoxing

They traded up 8 spots....i mean....wasn't THAT aggressive.

You're clearly being emotional. The trade up was more significant than the trade back the year before.

Trading back 2 spots in the 2nd proves that they don't value the WR postion, but trading up 8 spots in the 2nd means nothing?

Completely emotional argument dude.

MahomesMagic · 12-12-2023, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detoxing

They traded up 8 spots....i mean....wasn't THAT aggressive.

Yeah, in context it was after they traded their #1 HOF WR because they didn't want to pay him like the top WR in the NFL.

Then in the following season let their new #1 WR walk and did not bother to replace him but used the money to add depth to the defense that had already gotten all the attention in the prior drafts.

And after Veach called some teams looking to get a premium WR in the draft but said he didn't pull the trigger because teams were asking too much.

I think the problem is both a issue of total investments and evaluation.

In 6 drafts, Brett Veach has drafted only 1 WR that would play as a #1, #2, or even #3 on most teams.

staylor26 · 12-12-2023, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MahomesMagic

Yeah, in context it was after they traded their #1 HOF WR because they didn't want to pay him like the top WR in the NFL.

Then in the following season let their new #1 WR walk and did not bother to replace him but used the money to add depth to the defense that had already gotten all the attention in the prior drafts.

And after Veach called some teams looking to get a premium WR in the draft but said he didn't pull the trigger because teams were asking too much.

I think the problem is both a issue of total investments and evaluation.

In 6 drafts, Brett Veach has drafted only 1 WR that would play as a #1, #2, or even #3 on most teams.

We're still pretending that Rashee Rice hasn't been a clear replacement for JuJu, huh?

****ing intellectually dishonest prick.

ToxSocks · 12-12-2023, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staylor26

Funny that you mention DB because that's a position that everybody thought they would never invest highly in based on Veach's first few seasons. They've invested highly in exactly one guy at the position.

And i told those people at the time that they were wrong.

The DB group was attacked aggressively with a multitude of picks that spanned an entire draft, as well as the addition of a Key F/A that they spent more money on than any WR.

Which is a far cry from "a" 2nd round draft pick.

We have 100's of Millions spent on OL the last few seasons. Big money on the DL along with a pair of back to back first rounders.

They very clearly seriously attacked those position groups in a much different way than WR.

staylor26 · 12-12-2023, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detoxing

And i told those people at the time that they were wrong.

The DB group was attacked aggressively with a multitude of picks that spanned an entire draft , as well as the addition of a Key F/A that they spent more money on than any WR.

Which is a far cry from "a" 2nd round draft pick.

We have 100's of Millions spent on OL the last few seasons. Big money on the DL along with a pair of back to back first rounders.

They very clearly seriously attacked those position groups in a much different way than WR.

You mean a 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 7th?

They invested 2 2nds and a 3rd at WR in 2 years.

The only difference is the 1st round pick. That's it. Again, you're 100% being emotional and illogical about this.

Complain all you want about them getting it wrong with Moore and Toney, but you can't say that they attacked the DB position while ignoring the WR position. That is not at all based on reality.

12-12-2023, 05:02 PM
Realbaddog Starter Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Olathe, Ks Casino cash: $3227175	Patrick Mahomes is entering his Donovan McNabb era Found this, didn't see it posted prior: The Kansas City Chiefs can point to a myriad of issues behind their offensive struggles, including Matt Nagy’s playcalling, but their rapid disarmament over the last two years has hit them where it hurts. If you’re searching for a culprit for Kansas City’s offensive demise and fall from top 10 in scoring for the first time since 2016, their wideouts have already been caught holding the bloody knife on the gridiron over the Super Bowl champions’ body. Patrick Mahomes, king of the tight spiral, discovered this season that he, too, is subject to the whims of his wideouts. For the second time in a matter of weeks, a Chiefs receiver has become the main NFL Twitter protagonist after butchering a miraculous Mahomes play on national television. Kadarius Toney provided a glimpse into what type of season this would be in the Chiefs season-opening loss to the Detroit Lions. That night featured a perfect trinity of drops by Toney including his pièce de résistance in the final two minutes, on a bobbled pass that should have put the Chiefs in position to win. Lightning struck again when Marquez Valdes-Scantling dropped a deep bomb inside Philly’s 5 on one of the final plays of their Week 11 loss to the Eagles. On Sunday, Toney treated the line of scrimmage like an abstract concept, lined up offsides and wiped out the highlight of his and Kelce’s careers. The Chiefs offense is spiraling and the calls are coming from inside the house. The root of this period of discontent has been Kansas City’s neglect in drafting or signing an elite receiver for Mahomes. It’s analogous to New England’s miscalculations in evaluating offensive skill positions during Tom Brady’s twilight with the Pats refusing to draft a wideout in the first round. Reid has experimented with this method of team-building around cardboard cutout receivers before and it failed. Welcome to the Donovan McNabb experience. During Reid’s early years at the helm of the Philadelphia Eagles, he surrounded McNabb with flotsam at receiver, developed Brian Westbrook into an amorphous multi-purpose back who could create splash plays at receiver or in the run game. The McNabb era in Philadelphia was defined by McNabb’s hero ball despite receivers who dropped the ball like they had carpal tunnel. The one season Philadelphia was gracious enough to bless him with Terrell Owens resulted in Philadelphia advancing past the NFC Championship in their fourth try and reaching the Super Bowl in McNabb and T.O.’s only full season together. It was a near perfect storm that resulted in McNabb setting career-highs in yardage, yards-per-attempt, touchdowns and quarterback rating. Mahomes’ career has been the inverse of McNabb’s. He is a superior quarterback in nearly every way above the shoulders than McNabb, but Philadelphia’s bayonet offense forced McNabb to do considerably more of the dirty work than Mahomes has had to do with Tyreek Hill, Sammy Watkins and Travis Kelce creating separation downfield in the Chiefs high-octane attack. McNabb was haunted by the follies of his wide receivers. Freddie Mitchell thanking god for his hands was the highlight of his Eagles career. James Thrash dropped a crucial pass in the 2004 NFC title game that cost the Eagles a trip to the Super Bowl, months before they acquired Owens. Staley and Todd Pinkston were denizens of Drop City during that championship loss to the Rams, while McNabb gutted it out for nearly three quarters with injured ribs. In Owens’ shadow, Mitchell and Pinkston were the only Eagles receivers to reel in touchdowns for Philadelphia during their Super Bowl campaign, catching a grand total of three. Philadelphia should erect a monument to the heavy lifting McNabb did with such a mediocre cast of receivers. During his stint in Philly, Westbrook, Pinkston, Chad Lewis, L.J. Smith, Thrash, Staley and Reggie Brown were his leading receivers. There isn’t a single 1,000-yard receiving season between the three of them. Not a single one. McNabb molded masterpieces from clay and dung. Kansas City’s contemporary receivers highlight the importance of having competent hands in your lineup. For years, NFL cognoscenti have made it their mission to minimize the effect a great receiving corps can have on an offense spearheaded by a quarterback deity. Great offense is a polytheistic exercise. If anything, Kansas City’s shortcomings should only strengthen Tyreek Hill’s MVP case. One season of this is enough. Kansas City can’t afford to prolong Mahomes and the passing attack’s suffering. If this season has taught us anything, it’s that while Reid has secured a slot in Canton after starting over in Kansas City, we should put a lot more respect on Donovan McNabb’s name and it should serve as a warning for Reid not to repeat his mistakes of that era. Link: https://deadspin.com/patrick-mahomes...efs-1851094149
Posts: 170

12-12-2023, 06:43 PM	#32
MahomesMagic Generational Player Join Date: May 2017 Location: Honolulu Casino cash: $400400	In a 2016 Sports Illustrated article, Jenny Vrentas took a deep look into interviews for NFL head coaching jobs. Reid was one of the coaches to whom Vrentas spoke, and Reid said that when he interviewed to become head coach of the Philadelphia Eagles, he told them what he needed to build a winning football team: I want two offensive tackles, a quarterback, two pass rushers, two corners, and I’ll figure the rest out. Notice something about this list? Reid doesn’t say he needs a wide receiver. Not even one. https://www.si.com/nfl/2016/01/19/nf...-jenny-vrentas Now that was almost 25 years ago. Has Reid evolved on this? The Tyreek trade fits the exact parameters Reid outlined where they trade the unicorn WR and use it to move up for a premium corner. In today's current NFL I would argue that Reid's list was pretty close but WR should be on it. You want to pass the ball and stop the other team from passing. So QB, WR's on the offense. Pass-Rushers and +Coverage Defensive Backs on defense. The OL is constructed based on the QB. A traditional pocket passer you probably do get 2 good tackles and fill in the rest. A mobile QB like Mahomes who has elite feel and pocket movement you might just want to do what we did, elite Guard Center Guard and get adequate players at tackle.
Posts: 10,047	1 0

12-12-2023, 06:50 PM	#37
staylor26 In Search of a Life Join Date: Oct 2007 Casino cash: $-2050960	"Instead of taking BPA, they traded down" This is just nonsense. Sure, you could certainly argue that Pickens was BPA and they should've just taken him. But you're assuming that he was BPA on their board. There are multiple reasons to believe that probably wasn't the case. The trade down said more about how they felt about the WRs available, and less about how they feel about the WR postion. The fact that they aggressively traded up for Rice in the 2nd this year clearly proves that.
Posts: 52,905

12-12-2023, 06:52 PM	#38
cabletech94 Everything is Awesome!!!!! Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: The Pitt Casino cash: $-1523195	Sometimes, it’s okay not to post an article. J/S __________________ Originally Posted by Big Smoke May as well laugh. Otherwise I will probably break shit.
Posts: 11,580