Gunther has been more of a liability than an asset to the organization - Page 3

shaneo69 · 11-17-2004, 02:36 PM

Like many of you, I was doing cartwheels last winter when Gunther was re-hired as DC. Now, I've come to the realization that, while not intentional, he has played a key role in the decline of the organization since 1998.

After Marty quit, CP had two key decisions to make. He had to hire a new head coach, and he had to decide who the Chiefs QB would be. He could've spent the big bucks and gone after a proven head coach like George Seifert. He could've spent more big bucks and re-signed Rich Gannon. But Peterson decided to hire a guy like Gunther, who wouldn't command a big salary, and who could be bullied into a) going with Grbac at QB since he was already signed to starter's money, and b) keeping the same stooges as assistant coaches, since they were still under contract. Gunther was just happy to be head coach and didn't care what kind of crappy conditions he was being subjected to, because he thought he was a good enough coach to overcome it. It turned out that he was not good enough to overcome Elvis' many weaknesses, the stooges' ineptness, and the death of Derrick Thomas.

Fast forward to 2004. Gunther loved KC, the Chiefs fans, and Carl and Lamar. He was so excited to be coming back as a hero that he agreed to DV's caveat that he wasn't going to be getting any help from free agency. We heard DV use the "cashed out" excuse, but my suspicions are that he a) didn't want to get rid of any of his beloved players, and b) he didn't want to give Gunther any more help than what GRob had to work with. And after thinking that his coaching ability could overcome any obstacles, Gunther has proven once again that he can't work miracles.

In both situations, Gunther should've stood up and made realistic demands, but I think he was too insecure to do so. Of course, had he done that, he probably wouldn't have gotten the Head Coaching job in '99 or the DC job in '04.

Hopefully, he will stand up this offseason and demand changes in defensive personnel, or we will be going through the same crap next year.

**the Talking Can** · 11-17-2004, 04:04 PM

I was against hiring Gun...but given our options he seemed like a reasonable choice....he was hired to change the "spirit" of defense, and since it seems, imho, that our defense has essentially given up half way through the year, and that they are arguably no better than last year, he has - so far- failed....miserably....

but, as has been mentioned, CP and DV bear the ultimate responsibility...they played on Gun's insane sense of loyalty and put him an impossible situation...the players on our defense are so lacking in talent, heart, desire, and pride that it is breathtaking...

damn, it is cloudy outside today....

htismaqe · 11-17-2004, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UserName

How many of the previous defensive position coaches were retained after Gunther was brought in? I think Gunther would have brought in his own coaches, at least. I still think Guinta is a horrible coach.

Of course the fact that Vermeil let Gunther bench his precious McCleon is a pretty good sign that Gunther has total control. Who knows.

Listen to Gunther now and compare it to back then.

He hasn't changed one bit.

He still believes that he, and he alone, can elevate this defense to a higher level.

Wile_E_Coyote · 11-17-2004, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UserName

Vermeil for OC. And you know he'd run the ball more than Saunders.

DV's run hasn't been all bad is the point

htismaqe · 11-17-2004, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the Talking Can

I was against hiring Gun...but given our options he seemed like a reasonable choice....he was hired to change the "spirit" of defense, and since it seems, imho, that our defense has essentially given up half way through the year, and that they are arguably no better than last year, he has - so far- failed....miserably....

but, as has been mentioned, CP and DV bear the ultimate responsibility...they played on Gun's insane sense of loyalty and put him an impossible situation...the players on our defense are so lacking in talent, heart, desire, and pride that it is breathtaking...

damn, it is cloudy outside today....

You make it sound like Gunther was a victim.

As far as we know, he's a WILLING participant.

He saw the chance for immortal glory by turning around this monstrosity of a defense. He overestimated his ability -- AGAIN.

**the Talking Can** · 11-17-2004, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

You make it sound like Gunther was a victim.

As far as we know, he's a WILLING participant.

He saw the chance for immortal glory by turning around this monstrosity of a defense. He overestimated his ability -- AGAIN.

I claimed he was both.....read it again

**the Talking Can** · 11-17-2004, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by htismaqe

You make it sound like Gunther was a victim.

As far as we know, he's a WILLING participant.

He saw the chance for immortal glory by turning around this monstrosity of a defense. He overestimated his ability -- AGAIN.

let me clarify: CP and DV offered an alcoholic a drink

yes, Gun is responsible....but they new of his insane connection to KC and they new he wouldn't say no....and, IMHO, they knew they putting him in a sad situation....but Gunther's connection to KC glory days was enough to divert everyone: please the fans, create some excitment, feed the talking heads etc....letting our sad D slip under the radar until now, where we find ourselves faced with the truth

Hammock Parties · 11-17-2004, 04:16 PM

Vermeil claims that there will be no new starters on D this year. Is he in control or is Gunther? Gunther benched McCleon...

**BigRedChief** · 11-17-2004, 04:18 PM

I was in favor of hiring gun and I'm still in favor of him as DC....for now.

Hammock Parties · 11-17-2004, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

I was in favor of hiring gun and I'm still in favor of him as DC....for now.

There is nothing wrong with Gunther's scheme. But if he thinks he can stand pat talent-wise this offseason, he can get the hell out of KC.

Deberg_1990 · 11-17-2004, 05:32 PM

The biggest mistake DV ever made was in not canning Grob and this pathetic secondary after the 2002 season. We have all known they were crap for about 4 seasons now. If he would have done that we would now be in season 2 of our Defensive rebuilding period.

Wallcrawler · 11-17-2004, 06:25 PM

Coaches coach. Players play the game.

The failure of this defense does not fall on the shoulders of Gunther Cunningham. Past history has proven that the first year a new coach/coordinator takes over, barring a few instances, things are generally very rough.

This defense was the laughing stock of the league for 3 years running, and they didnt bring in any new talent for year 4, and Gun's first crack at turning this thing around.

Greg Robinson ran complicated, confusing, and utter bs schemes that he didnt have the talent to run. He refused to alter his scheme, and therefore the rankings never improved.

Gunther runs a very basic, aggressive defense. Not as much confusion, but the fact remains that the players that are on the field are just not the caliber of players that can perform at a high level every week.

Massive change is needed with this team, and its going to be a long time coming. Standing pat this last offseason only lengthened the problem. Im thinking it will take at least TWO GOOD OFFSEASONS on defense to even begin to turn this thing around. The caliber of defensive talent on the free agent list will most likely not match what was available last season.

The Chiefs could have had shots at Jevon Kearse, Grant Wistrom, Robaire Smith, Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor, Antoine Winfield, Joey porter....the list goes on.

Granted, some of these guys were veteran players with only a season or two left, but they are definately better than any player on the Chiefs defensive roster right now. But they chose to re-sign all of the crap players that would have been leaving to long term contracts.

If anyone should bear the brunt of this disaster, its Carl Peterson, and Lamar Hunt for not wanting something more for this team.

11-17-2004, 02:36 PM
shaneo69 Smug Weasel Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Bleachers at Busch Casino cash: $10004900	Gunther has been more of a liability than an asset to the organization Like many of you, I was doing cartwheels last winter when Gunther was re-hired as DC. Now, I've come to the realization that, while not intentional, he has played a key role in the decline of the organization since 1998. After Marty quit, CP had two key decisions to make. He had to hire a new head coach, and he had to decide who the Chiefs QB would be. He could've spent the big bucks and gone after a proven head coach like George Seifert. He could've spent more big bucks and re-signed Rich Gannon. But Peterson decided to hire a guy like Gunther, who wouldn't command a big salary, and who could be bullied into a) going with Grbac at QB since he was already signed to starter's money, and b) keeping the same stooges as assistant coaches, since they were still under contract. Gunther was just happy to be head coach and didn't care what kind of crappy conditions he was being subjected to, because he thought he was a good enough coach to overcome it. It turned out that he was not good enough to overcome Elvis' many weaknesses, the stooges' ineptness, and the death of Derrick Thomas. Fast forward to 2004. Gunther loved KC, the Chiefs fans, and Carl and Lamar. He was so excited to be coming back as a hero that he agreed to DV's caveat that he wasn't going to be getting any help from free agency. We heard DV use the "cashed out" excuse, but my suspicions are that he a) didn't want to get rid of any of his beloved players, and b) he didn't want to give Gunther any more help than what GRob had to work with. And after thinking that his coaching ability could overcome any obstacles, Gunther has proven once again that he can't work miracles. In both situations, Gunther should've stood up and made realistic demands, but I think he was too insecure to do so. Of course, had he done that, he probably wouldn't have gotten the Head Coaching job in '99 or the DC job in '04. Hopefully, he will stand up this offseason and demand changes in defensive personnel, or we will be going through the same crap next year.
Posts: 4,910

11-17-2004, 04:04 PM	#31
the Talking Can Supporter Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: street Casino cash: $10022208	I was against hiring Gun...but given our options he seemed like a reasonable choice....he was hired to change the "spirit" of defense, and since it seems, imho, that our defense has essentially given up half way through the year, and that they are arguably no better than last year, he has - so far- failed....miserably.... but, as has been mentioned, CP and DV bear the ultimate responsibility...they played on Gun's insane sense of loyalty and put him an impossible situation...the players on our defense are so lacking in talent, heart, desire, and pride that it is breathtaking... damn, it is cloudy outside today.... __________________ Clark Hunt: "Thank god for the Dominican pool boy"
Posts: 51,585

11-17-2004, 04:16 PM	#37
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $4170478	Vermeil claims that there will be no new starters on D this year. Is he in control or is Gunther? Gunther benched McCleon... __________________ Chiefs game films
Posts: 279,711

11-17-2004, 04:18 PM	#38
BigRedChief Has a particular set of skills Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: On the water Casino cash: $2609627 VARSITY	I was in favor of hiring gun and I'm still in favor of him as DC....for now. __________________ Time is worth more than money.
Posts: 79,305

11-17-2004, 05:32 PM	#40
Deberg_1990 In Search of a Life Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Antonio Tx. Casino cash: $3474454	The biggest mistake DV ever made was in not canning Grob and this pathetic secondary after the 2002 season. We have all known they were crap for about 4 seasons now. If he would have done that we would now be in season 2 of our Defensive rebuilding period.
Posts: 66,914

11-17-2004, 06:25 PM	#41
Wallcrawler How tall is this thing? Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ground 0 for enema of US. Casino cash: $4162912	Coaches coach. Players play the game. The failure of this defense does not fall on the shoulders of Gunther Cunningham. Past history has proven that the first year a new coach/coordinator takes over, barring a few instances, things are generally very rough. This defense was the laughing stock of the league for 3 years running, and they didnt bring in any new talent for year 4, and Gun's first crack at turning this thing around. Greg Robinson ran complicated, confusing, and utter bs schemes that he didnt have the talent to run. He refused to alter his scheme, and therefore the rankings never improved. Gunther runs a very basic, aggressive defense. Not as much confusion, but the fact remains that the players that are on the field are just not the caliber of players that can perform at a high level every week. Massive change is needed with this team, and its going to be a long time coming. Standing pat this last offseason only lengthened the problem. Im thinking it will take at least TWO GOOD OFFSEASONS on defense to even begin to turn this thing around. The caliber of defensive talent on the free agent list will most likely not match what was available last season. The Chiefs could have had shots at Jevon Kearse, Grant Wistrom, Robaire Smith, Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor, Antoine Winfield, Joey porter....the list goes on. Granted, some of these guys were veteran players with only a season or two left, but they are definately better than any player on the Chiefs defensive roster right now. But they chose to re-sign all of the crap players that would have been leaving to long term contracts. If anyone should bear the brunt of this disaster, its Carl Peterson, and Lamar Hunt for not wanting something more for this team.
Posts: 6,938