My opinion of Scott Pioli will be set based on the performance of this draft class.

[Frankie]

These guys better be solid. I don't expect superstars but I expect each and everyone of them to contribute to a serious rapid surge towards being a SB contender.

I AM (as my other thread indicated) a bit concerned about this draft. I admit, part of that feeling is I expected perhaps a sexier or a more thrilling draft.

Another part is perhaps the middle eastern blood in me. It makes me a bit of a wheeler dealer in life and as such I really get excited about my favorite team engage in it. I envied Dallas under Jones and Johnson on draft days while I got frustrated with Peterson.

I expected pioli to rape some lesser GM out of their draft picks, move up and down the board and build up a cashe of future picks. While Belichick did this again, Pioli - at least it seems for now - got concervative and forced his picks (ala Carl Peterson). OK, I really didn't expect that dynamic a draft day as I realize that Belichik had more ammunition to do this with. But zero?! Nada?! Zilch?! I really liked Tyson Jackson, but he was not the only one I liked. Maybe we chould have made a trade with the Jets and if Pioli is the genius that every one says he is he could have squeezed a better deal from then than Cleveland did.

I also cannot understand why everything is forced toward a 3-4 or bust. Nothing's wrong with 4-3, especially if we already have accumulated some viable personnel for it. Why not use our picks toward improving on our 4-3 personnel and also address some glaring needs. And please don't give me the bullshit about we need EVERYTHING! That's a cop out and the first poster who plays that card will earn himself (or herself) a nice neg-rep. Fact is we seemed to run behind, throughout the draft, after our first pick. Maybe our lack of a 2nd caused that. But I do wonder if we had picked Maualuga for example with a 2nd whether we would have had a course adjustment and could have run into better prospects before they were picked ahead of us.

But those are the breaks. I am not unhappy with having the 2nd spent on Cassel. But he also better pan out big. In short, if Cassel and the rest of our draftees put my mind at ease, I'm prepared to become a Pioli groupy and bow to his genius like the rest of you are with blind faith. NOT BEFORE! If the selectees cause this team to lose even one year of recovery, I will brand Pioli another pig-headed clone of Carl Peterson who sacrificed our roster for a system. Bottom line, Pioli will be either a god of football or a total loser in my eyes after next season. No shades of gray in this for me.

[bkkcoh]

Maybe one should wait until he has his own scouts in place before really judging him on the draft.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Frankie

When it is a significant year for a team. I'm of the opinion that our team is not that far from having a reasonably good roster and I don't see any reason to F it up just because of a personal infatuation with a different system. This draft IMO could have taken us a giant step higher. Instead I'm afraid it at best will take us back to where we are right now. What personnel we may have gained are a wash when you consider the personnel that will no longer fit our system and we will either release or give to other teams at bargain prices.

Well, Frankie, let's see if this makes sense to you. Do you think that when Dick Vermeil came into Kansas City that the front office should have forced him to coach around Marty Schottenheimer's players? Given that we know Vermeil wanted lighter, 180 lb receivers, should we force him to use another guy's 200+ lb, bigger west coast receivers? There's no reason for Pioli to be forced to run another guy's system. When most new coaches come in, the GMs build a system around that coach and generally give them at least 3 years to turn the team around. It's especially true with a new GM--that's why you let him bring in his own coaches most of the time. Pioli really wants to run a 3-4. It's what he likes, it's what he knows, it's what he's good at. Why should he have to suffer behind the mistakes of Carl Peterson? So we'll suck for 1-2 years on D as we transition, but we're not building to win now. We're building toward a strong foundation for 3+ years from now.

And so, when you say you'll negatively rep anyone who suggests that we need help everywhere, can you tell me if you truly believe that this team can be built around our current front 7? Because the only guy on that front 7 that must be protected is Glenn Dorsey--and we have no idea if he'll pan out at all. You don't build the defense around one guy. It sucks that we might have to burn last year's #5 pick, but the cost of that is well worth the reward of your GM having the ability to build a defense that he believes in.

Sure, we can ask Pioli to scout and recruit for a 4-3. If he's a good GM, he should know how to do it. But you're asking him to build a defense he doesn't believe in and you're expecting that he knows how to recruit 4-3 players as well as he does 3-4. Over time, I'm sure Pioli has developed a certain eye for finding the right players based on a 3-4 mentality. While some of the evaluations for these players might be the same, they are also quite different--case in point, the fact that Pioli gushes over Tyson Jackson while most traditional 4-3 coaches think it's a major reach.

So to answer your question, it's what we're good at and while there is obviously some cost and short-term pain involved to make the switch, it's well worth it for the long-term benefit we'll get from it.

[Fritz88]

come on Frankie, we will need to wait at least 3 years to judge this year's class.

Carl had the jackpot with DT but then sucked monkey balls afterwards..it's hard to judge..

[CoMoChief]

Unless our DE becomes the next Richard Seymour I think this draft really sucked.

[Frankie]

Originally Posted by Metrolike

Why are you of the opinion that I don't question Pioli or that doing so is sacrilegious in my mind? Is it because I don't expect him to draft a superstar in every round? What is wrong with you, man?

And I know you're probably not finishing reading my posts in your rage, but I didn't, in fact, miss it.

There was no sure superstar in this draft class. I never asked for a superstar. It's obviously you who don't finish reading my posts.

[kstater]

Originally Posted by Frankie

There was no sure superstar in this draft class. I never asked for a superstar. It's obviously you who don't finish reading my posts.

Yet you expect all 7 picks to play like super stars and be great their rookie year.

[Frankie]

Originally Posted by bkkcoh

Maybe one should wait until he has his own scouts in place before really judging him on the draft.

Acceptable point. In a limited way.

[Frankie]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Well, Frankie, let's see if this makes sense to you. Do you think that when Dick Vermeil came into Kansas City that the front office should have forced him to coach around Marty Schottenheimer's players? Given that we know Vermeil wanted lighter, 180 lb receivers, should we force him to use another guy's 200+ lb, bigger west coast receivers?

When DV came in we had an old team. The time was ripe for a rebuild and a new system. The diff here is we are halfway through a rebuild with another system. Arguably half the young starting roster is in place. the timing to force a new system is terrible.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

And so, when you say you'll negatively rep anyone who suggests that we need help everywhere, can you tell me if you truly believe that this team can be built around our current front 7? Because the only guy on that front 7 that must be protected is Glenn Dorsey--and we have no idea if he'll pan out at all.

I have more faith than most people here in our defensive front line. Hali could be solid IMO if he would have a legit rushing partner. Dorsey, despite a sub-par rookie season would bounce back in his future years. It is very rare to draft a D-lineman and have him dominate the first year. Tank, under better coaching has very good potential. All we need for the front 4 would be a legit RE. As for the LBs I was never a big fan of drafting DJ (wanted Ware that year). And the rest last year were scrubs. That's where we should have concentrated our D rebuild.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Sure, we can ask Pioli to scout and recruit for a 4-3. If he's a good GM, he should know how to do it. But you're asking him to build a defense he doesn't believe in and you're expecting that he knows how to recruit 4-3 players as well as he does 3-4. Over time, I'm sure Pioli has developed a certain eye for finding the right players based on a 3-4 mentality. While some of the evaluations for these players might be the same, they are also quite different--case in point, the fact that Pioli gushes over Tyson Jackson while most traditional 4-3 coaches think it's a major reach.

So to answer your question, it's what we're good at and while there is obviously some cost and short-term pain involved to make the switch, it's well worth it for the long-term benefit we'll get from it.

Thanks for engaging in a debate cerebrally. A lot of posters here should learn from you.

[Frankie]

Originally Posted by Frankie

These guys better be solid. I don't expect superstars but I expect each and everyone of them to contribute to a serious rapid surge towards being a SB contender.

Originally Posted by kstater

Yet you expect all 7 picks to play like super stars and be great their rookie year.

No I don't.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Frankie

When DV came in we had an old team. The time was ripe for a rebuild and a new system. The diff here is we are halfway through a rebuild with another system. Arguably half the young starting roster is in place. the timing to force a new system is terrible.

I have more faith than most people here in our defensive front line. Hali could be solid IMO if he would have a legit rushing partner. Dorsey, despite a sub-par rookie season would bounce back in his future years. It is very rare to draft a D-lineman and have him dominate the first year. Tank, under better coaching has very good potential. All we need for the front 4 would be a legit RE. As for the LBs I was never a big fan of drafting DJ (wanted Ware that year). And the rest last year were scrubs. That's where we should have concentrated our D rebuild.


Thanks for engaging in a debate cerebrally. A lot of posters here should learn from you.

I actually liked the potential of our interior D-line too. Believe me, I was one of the few that actually believed we were moving in the right direction after last season.

But the question you have to ask is if there is enough potential in the current pieces to justify the cost of not moving to a 3-4. Those costs are that we have no idea if Pioli is any good at evaluating to fill in a 4-3, and then there's my opinion that 3-4 defenses are a lot easier to build. If you know what you're doing. Yes, we've seen lots of 3-4's fail recently (i.e. SF and Cleveland), but I've also seen that the most consistently dominant defenses (Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New England) run 3-4's and still to this day continue to run them extremely effectively. Even though these teams have gone through lots of changes at D-coordinator. And I think that's because 4-3 defenses require you to have playmakers at almost every position. I also think you need a genius/innovator at D-coordinator, like Monte Kiffin or Jim Johnson. In a 3-4, if you have a terrific defensive line, you can build around them. That's why every single year, you see the Steelers and Pats lose key players in their back 7 and never once miss a beat. Part of that is scouting, but it's too much of a coincidence that these teams happen to run a 3-4.

But here's the greater picture. Pioli isn't building for now. He's building for a team that he believes can win in 3 years and that he can hopefully keep replenishing with good pieces 10 years down the road. The reason the Pats are so successful is not because they draft a lot of stars, but because they build a roster that is 53-players deep with players that are great system players. Take them out of New England, and many of them won't be nearly as good. That's the system Pioli knows. We have no idea if he knows anything else. And what's great about it is, you don't need "windows" to make it work. Whereas 4-3 defenses often load up with talent to make a 5-year run, teams like Pitt, Baltimore, and NE have continually shown that they can keep the window open for 10 years by consistently drafting people they know how to draft.

I know the word "Patriot Way" is cliche, but I think the method also applies to Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Like it or hate it, teams that know how to run a 3-4 well have been very consistent over time. And I don't think that's a coincidence.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by CoMoChief

Unless our DE becomes the next Richard Seymour I think this draft really sucked.

I disagree. I thought it was a great analogy that if he becomes Russell Maryland, a difference making D-lineman who never got the credit he deserved, even though he made everyone on that defense better, then w had a decent draft. The Patriots are built around a core of solid players who fit well into their system. They are generally not built around a ton of superstars.

[keg in kc]

My opinion of Scott Pioli will be based on the performance of this and the next two draft classes. And he probably deserves more time than that.

[wild1]

another thread

[OnTheWarpath15]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

I disagree. I thought it was a great analogy that if he becomes Russell Maryland, a difference making D-lineman who never got the credit he deserved, even though he made everyone on that defense better, then w had a decent draft. The Patriots are built around a core of solid players who fit well into their system. They are generally not built around a ton of superstars.

Tom Brady
Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Richard Seymour
Vince Wilfork
Adalius Thomas
Tedy Bruschi
Jared Mayo
Asante Samuel

Not a superstar in the bunch.

[SAUTO]

Originally Posted by OnTheWarpath58

Tom Brady
Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Richard Seymour
Vince Wilfork
Adalius Thomas
Tedy Bruschi
Jared Mayo
Asante Samuel

Not a superstar in the bunch.

i know this isnt what the thread is about, but how many were drafted by the pats? 5?