Chiefs Jared Allen & Tony G trade results - Page 4

harpes · 09-30-2009, 08:04 PM

Just wondering where the rest of the planet is standing on the grade we can give for the Allen and TG trade now that it has been a little while. I know Allens numbers have been down a little but it still looks like he is making the big plays and TG is still the best. So how do you grade the trades now and would we be much better if it never happened.

ChiefsCountry · 09-30-2009, 11:16 PM

Charles and Morgan were the other draft picks.

Hog's Gone Fishin · 10-01-2009, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigChiefDave

Weren't the Chiefs 4-12 2 seasons ago with BOTH on the roster?

That's a stupid statement. JA is probably the best DE in the league and still young. Tg IS the best TE in the league. with those two on the team we could possibly be 2-1 or 3-0

Chiefnj2 · 10-01-2009, 05:22 AM

The Vikings protected themselves with Allen:

The Minnesota Vikings made defensive end Jared Allen the highest-paid defensive player in the NFL last month, but also provided themselves plenty of financial protection in the deal. It’s the type of protection that could become increasingly popular around the NFL as teams deal with high-risk players in the post-Michael Vick era.

One of the key elements to Allen’s six-year, $74 million contract is a provision, pre-approved by the player, that allows the Vikings to convert an $8 million roster bonus Allen is due to receive in 2010 into a signing bonus. In such a case, the team would recoup its money from the player and the signing bonus would count under the salary cap for the remaining years of his contract. Under rules of the collective bargaining agreement, signing bonuses can be recovered by a team when a player violates his contract; a roster bonus can’t.

That was a key issue in Vick winning the right to keep approximately $16.25 million in a federal court judgment handed down in February. That ruling came after the Atlanta Falcons had initially won the right to recover the money because Vick was sentenced to federal prison on charges related to dog fighting last year.

More From Jason ColeLatest injury could spell end for Pennington Sep 29, 2009 Ugly loss won't help Zorn's long-term prospects Sep 27, 2009 ADVERTISEMENT

In light of the Vick decision, which the NFL has appealed, Minnesota has come up with this provision in contracts signed by multiple big-money acquisitions this offseason. According to an NFL Players Association source, several other franchises have utilized this practice, though specific examples were not provided. Minnesota included the provision in contracts for safety Madieu Williams and wide receiver Bernard Berrian, which made the clause acceptable to Allen, said his agent Ken Harris.

“This is something the Vikings did with other players they signed this offseason, so it was consistent with everyone,” Harris said. “Jared was not being singled out, so we were willing to do that.”

However, the talented Allen, who had 15½ sacks in 14 games last season despite playing with the 4-12 Kansas City Chiefs, comes with more baggage than the other aforementioned newcomers. He was arrested or charged for driving under the influence three times between 2002 and 2006, including twice in a five-month span in 2006. He spent 48 hours in jail for the latter arrest and was suspended for the first two games last season by the league as a result of the 2006 incidents.

Harris said Allen has taken his treatment under the league’s substance-abuse policy very seriously. In fact, he appealed the four-game suspension handed out by the league for violating the league’s substance-abuse policy and had his punishment reduced to two games. Still, there is no doubting that a relapse could be a serious problem for Allen.

Despite his history, the Vikings gave up the No. 17 overall pick in the first round, two third-round picks and exchanged picks in the sixth round to get Allen from Kansas City. That was all in addition to the contract. Allen was a franchise player for the Chiefs, meaning that he was allowed to negotiate a deal with other teams, but compensation was required if the Chiefs let him go to another team.

To protect themselves, the Vikings included language in the contract for the first two years that allows them to terminate the deal if he’s arrested or suspended. In addition, Allen’s $15.5 million signing bonus is guaranteed only for injury. Signing bonus money is considered payment as a promise from the player to fulfill the terms of his contract.

However, roster bonus money can’t be recovered because it is considered “earned” income under the terms of the collective bargaining agreement.

That issue was important not only in the Vick decision but also in a decision in a dispute between wide receiver Ashley Lelie and the Denver Broncos where Lelie was allowed to keep roster bonus money in 2006. In the Vick case, the Falcons had roster bonus money treated as signing bonus by guaranteeing it, but the language of the contract wasn’t formally changed, creating an obvious loophole.

In the case of the Allen contract, NFL Players Association lawyer Richard Berthelsen said the union would still likely fight the league if Allen were to ever lose the money. However, the fight might be more difficult this time because of the clause, which was deftly crafted by Minnesota vice president of football operation Rob Brzezinski.

The other key difference between roster bonus and signing bonus is how they are counted against the salary cap. In the case of a roster bonus, all of the money paid counts in that season. So for Allen, the entire $8 million roster bonus he is set to receive in 2010 will count that year. By contrast, signing bonus is counted in portions over the length of a contract. For example, if a player receives a $5 million signing bonus as part of a five-year contract, only $1 million is counted each year of the deal. There are stipulations if the player is released or traded before he finishes the contract, but that’s the basic idea.

ILChief · 10-01-2009, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hog Farmer

That's a stupid statement. JA is probably the best DE in the league and still young. Tg IS the best TE in the league. with those two on the team we could possibly be 2-1 or 3-0

which one of them would be playing right tackle?

**BigMeatballDave** · 10-01-2009, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hog Farmer

That's a stupid statement. JA is probably the best DE in the league and still young. Tg IS the best TE in the league. with those two on the team we could possibly be 2-1 or 3-0

Not its not. Not at all. Its fact. Neither one of those players are OL. Our worst position. At best were 1-2 with both.

**Bane** · 10-01-2009, 05:31 AM

I didn't like either trade at first,mainly because I hated to see both playes leave.I haven't seen what I had hoped out of the picks we got for JA,and we don't know who were getting for the TG pick so I guess we wait.So far I don't really like the results,but hopefully they'll turn that around soon.
Posted via Mobile Device

Hog's Gone Fishin · 10-01-2009, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigChiefDave

Not its not. Not at all. Its fact. Neither one of those players are OL. Our worst position. At best were 1-2 with both.

OK. So now we need an OL, a DE, and a TE. I can see how we're better off.

Pioli Zombie · 10-01-2009, 05:55 AM

How can you grade the Tony G trade when they haven't even drafted the player in the second round yet?

As far as the Allen trade. One of the most idiotic deals ever.
Posted via Mobile Device

13and3 · 10-01-2009, 05:58 AM

I have never understood why people believe trading away a proven commodity at any position for some unknown factor (draft picks which may or may not pan out) is a good idea. It seems to me some, just want to be wheelers and dealers. I always thought a bird in the hand is worth more than 2 in bush.

King_Chief_Fan · 10-01-2009, 06:08 AM

JA trade is moot. CP and JA did not get along. That trade happened beofre the new leadership. It was CP's kick in the butt to the Chiefs before he left. That appears to be a hugh mistake. TG falls on Pioli. We have yet to see how that is going to turn out for the next couple of years. TG would have been no help in the Philly game.

Pioli Zombie · 10-01-2009, 06:14 AM

Yeah, Tony made such a huge difference in the win total over the last 2 years. Are you trying to build a Super Bowl winner in the future or a 4-12 team now?
Posted via Mobile Device

Tiger's Fan · 10-01-2009, 07:05 AM

The JA deal continues to be the worst transaction in franchise history.

Pioli got a 2nd rounder out of an aging, nearly retired TIGHT ****ING END!

But he sucks...

LaChapelle · 10-01-2009, 07:19 AM

It would appear most would agree Allen is gone because of Peterson. After that a lot of work has to go into the guess work forward.

The Chiefs were in a lot of games to the end in 2008. But. Then. The other team plays different when the results are different. Like the Raider game. The Raiders never made a drive down the field until after the Chiefs did.

We just fool ourselves into believing what we want to believe with guess work.

TheGuardian · 10-01-2009, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

He had 13, you dumb mother****er. While playing largely a reserve role for half his college career. That's pretty damned good for an interior lineman.

And, NFL.Com's profile for him as a prospect:

"Compares To: WARREN SAPP-Oakland"

Wow he had 13 sacks in 4 years. 7 of which came in one year. I also like how he was in a "reserve role" for "half of his college career". Well yeah duh, but he was a freaking all american his first full year starting. And even then he only registered 3 sacks. So more than half of his sacks came in one season. The other three years he totaled up 6 sacks. Impressive. :rollseyes

I said that people comparing him to Warren Sapp were off. He is NOT a Warren Sapp and he didn't play that way at LSU you dipshit.

And the same site says this about him, which I see you ignored....

Quote:

While we will follow the party line that he could develop into another Sapp, he also could be a clone of a former LSU Tiger, Anthony McFarland.

Hmmmmmm. Seems like the latter right now doesn't it? Does he look like Warren Sapp right now? I have no doubt that you watched very little of Dorsey in college because anyone who did could see he was not a natural pass rusher and he's struggled badly in learning to do that in the NFL. He didn't play in that kind of system in college and he was NEVER a gap-shooting penetrator type in college. Get a ****ing clue.

beach tribe · 10-01-2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 13and3

I have never understood why people believe trading away a proven commodity at any position for some unknown factor (draft picks which may or may not pan out) is a good idea. It seems to me some, just want to be wheelers and dealers. I always thought a bird in the hand is worth more than 2 in bush.

Yep, I don't think you should ever trade a franchise player for anything other than 2 high firsts, and maybe more.
You know what you've got in the player, you NEVER know what you're getting with future draft picks

09-30-2009, 08:04 PM
harpes Starter Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Baxter Springs Ks Casino cash: $10004900	Jared Allen & Tony G trade results Just wondering where the rest of the planet is standing on the grade we can give for the Allen and TG trade now that it has been a little while. I know Allens numbers have been down a little but it still looks like he is making the big plays and TG is still the best. So how do you grade the trades now and would we be much better if it never happened.
Posts: 211

09-30-2009, 11:16 PM	#46
ChiefsCountry The Insider Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Lake of the Ozarks Casino cash: $-1481248	Charles and Morgan were the other draft picks.
Posts: 52,063

10-01-2009, 05:22 AM	#48
Chiefnj2 In Search of a Life Join Date: Mar 2007 Casino cash: $6664388	The Vikings protected themselves with Allen: The Minnesota Vikings made defensive end Jared Allen the highest-paid defensive player in the NFL last month, but also provided themselves plenty of financial protection in the deal. It’s the type of protection that could become increasingly popular around the NFL as teams deal with high-risk players in the post-Michael Vick era. One of the key elements to Allen’s six-year, $74 million contract is a provision, pre-approved by the player, that allows the Vikings to convert an $8 million roster bonus Allen is due to receive in 2010 into a signing bonus. In such a case, the team would recoup its money from the player and the signing bonus would count under the salary cap for the remaining years of his contract. Under rules of the collective bargaining agreement, signing bonuses can be recovered by a team when a player violates his contract; a roster bonus can’t. That was a key issue in Vick winning the right to keep approximately $16.25 million in a federal court judgment handed down in February. That ruling came after the Atlanta Falcons had initially won the right to recover the money because Vick was sentenced to federal prison on charges related to dog fighting last year. More From Jason ColeLatest injury could spell end for Pennington Sep 29, 2009 Ugly loss won't help Zorn's long-term prospects Sep 27, 2009 ADVERTISEMENT In light of the Vick decision, which the NFL has appealed, Minnesota has come up with this provision in contracts signed by multiple big-money acquisitions this offseason. According to an NFL Players Association source, several other franchises have utilized this practice, though specific examples were not provided. Minnesota included the provision in contracts for safety Madieu Williams and wide receiver Bernard Berrian, which made the clause acceptable to Allen, said his agent Ken Harris. “This is something the Vikings did with other players they signed this offseason, so it was consistent with everyone,” Harris said. “Jared was not being singled out, so we were willing to do that.” However, the talented Allen, who had 15½ sacks in 14 games last season despite playing with the 4-12 Kansas City Chiefs, comes with more baggage than the other aforementioned newcomers. He was arrested or charged for driving under the influence three times between 2002 and 2006, including twice in a five-month span in 2006. He spent 48 hours in jail for the latter arrest and was suspended for the first two games last season by the league as a result of the 2006 incidents. Harris said Allen has taken his treatment under the league’s substance-abuse policy very seriously. In fact, he appealed the four-game suspension handed out by the league for violating the league’s substance-abuse policy and had his punishment reduced to two games. Still, there is no doubting that a relapse could be a serious problem for Allen. Despite his history, the Vikings gave up the No. 17 overall pick in the first round, two third-round picks and exchanged picks in the sixth round to get Allen from Kansas City. That was all in addition to the contract. Allen was a franchise player for the Chiefs, meaning that he was allowed to negotiate a deal with other teams, but compensation was required if the Chiefs let him go to another team. To protect themselves, the Vikings included language in the contract for the first two years that allows them to terminate the deal if he’s arrested or suspended. In addition, Allen’s $15.5 million signing bonus is guaranteed only for injury. Signing bonus money is considered payment as a promise from the player to fulfill the terms of his contract. However, roster bonus money can’t be recovered because it is considered “earned” income under the terms of the collective bargaining agreement. That issue was important not only in the Vick decision but also in a decision in a dispute between wide receiver Ashley Lelie and the Denver Broncos where Lelie was allowed to keep roster bonus money in 2006. In the Vick case, the Falcons had roster bonus money treated as signing bonus by guaranteeing it, but the language of the contract wasn’t formally changed, creating an obvious loophole. In the case of the Allen contract, NFL Players Association lawyer Richard Berthelsen said the union would still likely fight the league if Allen were to ever lose the money. However, the fight might be more difficult this time because of the clause, which was deftly crafted by Minnesota vice president of football operation Rob Brzezinski. The other key difference between roster bonus and signing bonus is how they are counted against the salary cap. In the case of a roster bonus, all of the money paid counts in that season. So for Allen, the entire $8 million roster bonus he is set to receive in 2010 will count that year. By contrast, signing bonus is counted in portions over the length of a contract. For example, if a player receives a $5 million signing bonus as part of a five-year contract, only $1 million is counted each year of the deal. There are stipulations if the player is released or traded before he finishes the contract, but that’s the basic idea. __________________ Mismanaging the clock.
Posts: 22,540

10-01-2009, 05:31 AM	#51
Bane C.H.I.E.F.S Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: **** your face Casino cash: $10005055	I didn't like either trade at first,mainly because I hated to see both playes leave.I haven't seen what I had hoped out of the picks we got for JA,and we don't know who were getting for the TG pick so I guess we wait.So far I don't really like the results,but hopefully they'll turn that around soon. Posted via Mobile Device Last edited by Bane; 10-01-2009 at 07:20 AM..
Posts: 12,621

10-01-2009, 05:55 AM	#53
Pioli Zombie Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: olathe,kansas Casino cash: $10004900	How can you grade the Tony G trade when they haven't even drafted the player in the second round yet? As far as the Allen trade. One of the most idiotic deals ever. Posted via Mobile Device
Posts: 11,077

10-01-2009, 05:58 AM	#54
13and3 R8R H8R Join Date: Aug 2005 Casino cash: $9996027	I have never understood why people believe trading away a proven commodity at any position for some unknown factor (draft picks which may or may not pan out) is a good idea. It seems to me some, just want to be wheelers and dealers. I always thought a bird in the hand is worth more than 2 in bush.
Posts: 574

10-01-2009, 06:08 AM	#55
King_Chief_Fan Praise Him Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: none ya Casino cash: $4755486	JA trade is moot. CP and JA did not get along. That trade happened beofre the new leadership. It was CP's kick in the butt to the Chiefs before he left. That appears to be a hugh mistake. TG falls on Pioli. We have yet to see how that is going to turn out for the next couple of years. TG would have been no help in the Philly game.
Posts: 12,362

10-01-2009, 06:14 AM	#56
Pioli Zombie Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: olathe,kansas Casino cash: $10004900	Yeah, Tony made such a huge difference in the win total over the last 2 years. Are you trying to build a Super Bowl winner in the future or a 4-12 team now? Posted via Mobile Device
Posts: 11,077

10-01-2009, 07:05 AM	#57
Tiger's Fan Veteran Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Ks Casino cash: $10004900	The JA deal continues to be the worst transaction in franchise history. Pioli got a 2nd rounder out of an aging, nearly retired TIGHT ****ING END! But he sucks... __________________ Rock Chalk! The San Diego SuperChokers! DaneMcCloud: where cowardice meets dishonesty
Posts: 1,832

10-01-2009, 07:19 AM	#58
LaChapelle Banned Join Date: Mar 2009 Casino cash: $10004900	It would appear most would agree Allen is gone because of Peterson. After that a lot of work has to go into the guess work forward. The Chiefs were in a lot of games to the end in 2008. But. Then. The other team plays different when the results are different. Like the Raider game. The Raiders never made a drive down the field until after the Chiefs did. We just fool ourselves into believing what we want to believe with guess work.
Posts: 8,588