Ethics and Honor - A Rain Man Rant

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

Well there is no question that benefits have deteriorated badly over the years I have been in business. Loyalty to employees is more a business to business issue. Loyalty from employees as a self preservation issue has definitely decreased over the years and rightfully so given the overall job market conditions. So in general I would answer your question that no this is not a "in the good old days" rant.

I'm nto that old, but I'd agree with this just based on a simple understanding of job turnover rates, reduction in long-term benefits, employment security and other factors that make being in the workforce very different in 2005 as compared to, say, 1965 or even 1985.

[Rain Man]

Hey, I've got no problem with you or anyone else disagreeing with me, patteeu. I agree too that an employee in today's world would be well-served to always be on the lookout for a better opportunity, and I have no ill feelings if someone leaves for a better opportunity. In the situation of a college student going through their career services office looking for a first job, however, I think they shouldn't take accepting a job offer lightly. It was this person's first professional commitment, and she didn't honor it. That's a bad first career move.

I'm not going to cause any trouble for this girl, because I don't think she knows what a breach of professionalism this was. She's just green. But there's no way I'm going to offer her a raise or anything to stay. I'd prefer to give that money to the people who are loyal to my company.

The other thing that I find interesting about this thread is that virtually everyone who owns a company agrees with my position, and most of the folks who haven't owned a company appears to think that the employee didn't have an obligation to keep her commitment.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

The other thing that I find interesting about this thread is that virtually everyone who owns a company agrees with my position, and most of the folks who haven't owned a company appears to think that the employee didn't have an obligation to keep her commitment.

That's because as employers, we know what it's like to lose quality employees. We also know that a large majority of businesses aren't the cut-throats that employees make them out to be. We try and treat our people right, and compensate well. In today's business world, most quality employees are highly valued by employers, it's too hard to find replacements.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by jspchief

That's because as employers, we know what it's like to lose quality employees. We also know that a large majority of businesses aren't the cut-throats that employees make them out to be. We try and treat our people right, and compensate well. In today's business world, most quality employees are highly valued by employers, it's too hard to find replacements.

Yup. Yep. Rep.

[Pennywise]

Just throw a hot cup of coffee in her face and be done with it.

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by jspchief

That's because as employers, we know what it's like to lose quality employees. We also know that a large majority of businesses aren't the cut-throats that employees make them out to be. We try and treat our people right, and compensate well. In today's business world, most quality employees are highly valued by employers, it's too hard to find replacements.

You might not be a complete cut-throat, but in your previous post, you suggested that you don't see anything wrong with screwing an employee who gave two weeks notice out of a couple weeks of pay. They aren't legally obligated to give any notice. It's a courtesy.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by patteeu

You might not be a complete cut-throat, but in your previous post, you suggested that you don't see anything wrong with screwing an employee who gave two weeks notice out of a couple weeks of pay. They aren't legally obligated to give any notice. It's a courtesy.

Wait a minute? Who's screwing who here? That door swings both ways. Rain Man invested time and money into hiring this employee with an expectation of return on his investment. She used him to make a buck, while she went out and found something better. Why should he allow her to use him for two more weeks, so that all her plans fall into place in a timely manner?

It's a courtesy to give two weeks, and it's also a courtesy to allow that employee to work at my business for an additional two weeks (or at all).

[patteeu]

Originally Posted by jspchief

Wait a minute? Who's screwing who here?

I thought I explicitely said you were the one doing the screwing. Are you not reading my posts?

Originally Posted by jspchief

That door swings both ways. Rain Man invested time and money into hiring this employee with an expectation of return on his investment. She used him to make a buck, while she went out and found something better. Why should he allow her to use him for two more weeks, so that all her plans fall into place in a timely manner?

It's a courtesy to give two weeks, and it's also a courtesy to allow that employee to work at my business for an additional two weeks (or at all).

I agree, it is a courtesy to let them stay on for two weeks. Two weeks notice and two weeks of severence are traditional courtesies. Neither is a legal obligation. I'm not saying you should let them stay on for the two weeks. If you want to show them the door immediately, that's your perogative. (FWIW, if you don't want to tip your waitress in a restaurant, you can refuse to do that too). What I AM saying is that that is why employees don't give 6 weeks notice. People like you make it too risky.

[ROYC75]

Originally Posted by jspchief

Wait a minute? Who's screwing who here? That door swings both ways. Rain Man invested time and money into hiring this employee with an expectation of return on his investment. She used him to make a buck, while she went out and found something better. Why should he allow her to use him for two more weeks, so that all her plans fall into place in a timely manner?

It's a courtesy to give two weeks, and it's also a courtesy to allow that employee to work at my business for an additional two weeks (or at all).

I'm with you on this one.......

had the girl came back in and said, Can we talk , My personal expenses are more than what I make, I need to talk to you about a raise or look for another job.... Then Rain Man could have handled it or accepted it differently. He could have .....
1). Offer a raise if he felt she was worth the risk
2) accepted the 2 week notice so he could look for a replacement.

But the fear of the employee is .... " If I tell them, they will fire me, I won't have any income for 2 weeks" Or they just don't want to face the fact of telling them until the last minute.

I had several employees come and ask for more money, knowing I couldn't match the offer from bigger compaines and still accepting a 2 week notice. Some of them just got pissed off and left on the spot.

I have asked for pay raises and never gotten them but didn't quit, knowing I needed income to support the family. I have informed my employer that I was going to look around and IF I left, I would give a notice and honor it because I don't burn the bridge behind me.

Now a days, that doesn't happen to often with people.

[Uncle_Ted]

Originally Posted by jspchief

That's because as employers, we know what it's like to lose quality employees. We also know that a large majority of businesses aren't the cut-throats that employees make them out to be. We try and treat our people right, and compensate well. In today's business world, most quality employees are highly valued by employers, it's too hard to find replacements.

Let me guess, you work for Walmart?

Sorry guys, but I'm not buying it. The "large majority" of employers will only treat their employees well so long as they believe it is in their best interest to do so. As soon as that NOT the case, hard-work, loyalty, friendship, etc. doesn't mean jack squat to most. Large businesses in particular are notorious for dumping on their employees.

[Rain Man]

Originally Posted by Uncle_Ted

Let me guess, you work for Walmart?

Sorry guys, but I'm not buying it. The "large majority" of employers will only treat their employees well so long as they believe it is in their best interest to do so. As soon as that NOT the case, hard-work, loyalty, friendship, etc. doesn't mean jack squat to most. Large businesses in particular are notorious for dumping on their employees.

I think that's the difference. Large businesses are by nature impersonal, and loyalty is low there. As a small business owner, I can tell you that if I get a good and loyal employee, I'll do everything I can to treat them right. If an employee helps me make money, they're darn sure going to get a piece of it themselves. I'm no dummy.

At the same time, if an employee shows up looking to do the minimum possible for a paycheck, they're not going to last long. That's their own doing, not mine.

[ROYC75]

Originally Posted by Uncle_Ted

Let me guess, you work for Walmart?

Sorry guys, but I'm not buying it. The "large majority" of employers will only treat their employees well so long as they believe it is in their best interest to do so. As soon as that NOT the case, hard-work, loyalty, friendship, etc. doesn't mean jack squat to most. Large businesses in particular are notorious for dumping on their employees.

There is a difference between large compaines and small compaines on a personal side note.

You have a valid point with the larger comapanies. Economics has played a large part of the failed personal touch with business.

As much as small business's too, but yet they are small enough to know you on a personal basis and communicate better.

[jspchief]

Originally Posted by Uncle_Ted

Let me guess, you work for Walmart?

Sorry guys, but I'm not buying it. The "large majority" of employers will only treat their employees well so long as they believe it is in their best interest to do so. As soon as that NOT the case, hard-work, loyalty, friendship, etc. doesn't mean jack squat to most. Large businesses in particular are notorious for dumping on their employees.

No. I own my own business. And I have enough professional peers to feel like I have a good understanding of the subject. Good employees are very hard to find, it's never in an employer's best interest to dump on them.

What exactly do you mean by "in their best interest"? You mean as long as it's fiscally reasonable to keep an employee? Maybe you don't realize that businesses' primary goal is to make money? The only time a smart employer would get rid of a hard working, loyal employee is when it became more of a financial burden than benefit. Thats how business works.

You say "Large businesses in particular are notorious for dumping on their employees". But I might say that employees of large companies are notorious for not understanding how a large business works, and are also notorious for thinking that any business move that doesn't benefit them directly is a direct attack on them.

I notice you mention "freindship" as an employee quality. Maybe that's your problem. Work isn't a social club with paychecks as a fringe benefit. Whether or not I'm friends with a person has no bearing on whether or not they are a quality or qualified employee. Sounds to me like you're one of those jaded employees that hates every boss he's ever had, and think the world owes him an equal share of the pie whether you earned it or not.

[Uncle_Ted]

Originally Posted by jspchief

What exactly do you mean by "in their best interest"? You mean as long as it's fiscally reasonable to keep an employee? Maybe you don't realize that businesses' primary goal is to make money? The only time a smart employer would get rid of a hard working, loyal employee is when it became more of a financial burden than benefit. Thats how business works.

I absolutely realize this. But absolute maximization of profit so management can take home the largest paycheck they can possibly get shouldn't be the end all be all of business. And I think we agree that self-interest encompasses more than just how much $$ the company made this year. Take, for example, the CEO of Costco. His business is booming. But he and his management team aren't trying to suck every last penny into their own pockets. They pay themselves reasonable salaries. They treat their employees well. Contrast that with Walmart.

You say "Large businesses in particular are notorious for dumping on their employees". But I might say that employees of large companies are notorious for not understanding how a large business works, and are also notorious for thinking that any business move that doesn't benefit them directly is a direct attack on them.

I am sure that most employees of a Fortune 500 company aren't qualified to be CEO. But I'll clarify what I was thinking -- an employer that starts firing employees left and right because they didn't meet analysts' quarterly earnings estimates. An employer that chops a thousand employees but turns around and pays its CEO a $50 million bonus. Management of some large companies takes a relatively short-term view of their company's self-interest. Ethically and for their own benefit, management's top 2 goals shouldn't be (1) max share price and (2) max executive bonuses. It took a while (and a few scandals) for many Fortune 500 companies to figure this out.

I notice you mention "freindship" as an employee quality. Maybe that's your problem. Work isn't a social club with paychecks as a fringe benefit. Whether or not I'm friends with a person has no bearing on whether or not they are a quality or qualified employee.

Some are, some aren't. Depends on the setting. I'm not saying that it should be a goal, but sometimes it happens. Maybe friendship was the wrong word to use. Let's use a good management-style term -- how about team-building? or collegiality? I'm not saying you should become friends with employees if you are the boss, or that you shouldn't fire an employee because you are friends with him. All I'm saying is that some employers complain about loyalty, but aren't willing to offer loyalty back to your employees. Don't ask an employees to "do what's right" even when it conflicts with their financial interest, when employers aren't willing to "do what's right" as soon as it conflicts with theirs.

Sounds to me like you're one of those jaded employees that hates every boss he's ever had, and think the world owes him an equal share of the pie whether you earned it or not.

I guess I have been generalizing a lot, so I won't fault you for that. But you actually couldn't be further from the truth. Can't say that I've ever worked as an employee for any of the type employers I've been talking about. I have, however, encountered a fair share of them (either as clients or otherwise).

Well, I gotta get back to work...

[Iowanian]

Originally Posted by Rain Man

The other thing that I find interesting about this thread is that virtually everyone who owns a company agrees with my position, and most of the folks who haven't owned a company appears to think that the employee didn't have an obligation to keep her commitment.

I disclaim that I've never Owned a company, other than 1 that only had 1 employee...me. I have been involved in hiring/firing as a dept mgmt.


I think the biggest reason I look from the employee side, is that 1. I am an employee 2. My past loyalty has been crapped on by employer.

The best example I can give, is that I was hired by a smaller Engineering firm, to begin a "division" "doing what I do professionally". Not a single person in the company, knew anything about the subject. I was hired with a "ra-ra" speech about unlimited potential, devoted support, and "we'll ride this as far as you can take it....build a reputation and we'll get you as much help as you need yada yada yada".

My 4th day on the job, I had studied up on the subject, put together some "sample data" as I too was learning about the specific area of expertise, and gave a presentation, and won a fairly large contract(on this companies persective). 3 weeks later, I won a 2nd contract and eventually a 3rd. For 2.5-3 years, I worked hard to do the best job that could be done...Quality work, hours of QC, hired some local kids the boss liked and worked with them and trained them.............and inbetween used existing equipment for some smaller projects to generate additional revenue(above and beyond imo).

The other projects were wrapping up, and the inspections of them by external professionals, hired by the institutions that had hired our company, came back at accuracy levels of 97.5, 98.8 and 99.5....First time. the best that had been seen by "the big boys" at the time, was 67%. thats right.........team Iowanian Kicked ASS.

I talked to the owner about potential other projects in the area, that we were quickly developing a reputation for excellent work and had been approached by a consultant to work exclusively with our company, which would have been a pretty big windfall. He agreed.

In the mean time, I was approached by 2 companies within a month, and turned them both down. I worked for 3 weeks-month putting together proposals, made the trips, did the meetings, and made the presentation to the decision making boards.......with the decision to be made at 8am on day z. I was confident we'd won the contracts.

My phone rings at 4:45 in day Y....the evening their making their decision. The Board is Pissed off and wants to know why iowanian withdrew the proposal? WTF I say.... Turns out, Boss changes mind at last minute, has office manager call board making decision that evening, and withdrew our bid....without telling me.

I go in and ask wtf, said boss is thinking.......He's decided that he'd prefer if Iowanian becomes a communications engineer and goes to Texas for 6 months, and then whereever. He's shutting down that division...........even though, its been profitable.

Iowanian explains that he's been shit on, that he's not interested in living in a camper in Texas for 6-8 months for 2 years, and that its time to move on. It had never been discussed, I was never approached, and found out from a phone call from an angry client who said they were going to award us the contract. It sucked.

today........I'm in a position, where I've been able to award 2 contracts to companies with former co-workers, my former college professor-advisor, and have been able to blackball 1 because he was a cheating jerkwater. treating people well has its rewards on both sides of the fence. Someday, this girl may get you a Million Dollar contract if you treated her well and aren't a jerk when she leaves.