These "parents" should face criminal charges

[DaneMcCloud]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by MIAdragon

Where are you getting this from? In the posted article it says;

"believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors."

Im not getting that they aren’t "allowed" to consult with them, they simply chose not too.>>
>>

I base my comments on those that I know that belong to faiths that do not believe in doctors.

Also, what constitutes an organized religion? Nazarine, Baptist, Methodist, Quaker, Mennonite, etc? How about the home churches that are not sanctioned by any entity that is associated with mainstream doctrine? Are they considered in the story or is it that the story only recognizes mainstream religions and they do not subscribe to the small churches I've mentioned?

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

If you want to hang your hat on the way the story is written, so be it. What I see is a family that has faith in God and does not have a medical background and treated what they could with what they could.

Find fault in them if you must, I still stand on the faith system being just that ... the faith of those that are involved and not the faith of those outside.

[MIAdragon]

Originally Posted by a1na2

I base my comments on those that I know that belong to faiths that do not believe in doctors.

Throw the link up again, please. I will re-read it to verify what you are saying.

Also, what constitutes an organized religion? Nazarine, Baptist, Methodist, Quaker, Mennonite, etc? How about the home churches that are not sanctioned by any entity that is associated with mainstream doctrine? Are they considered in the story or is it that the story only recognizes mainstream religions and they do not subscribe to the small churches I've mentioned?

Its the 4th sentence in the first post.

Lets save "what constitutes an organized religion" for another time. Its really not an issue in this case IMO.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

How many times does it have to be said? Their belief system does not allow them to consult with doctors. It's not a common sense issue, it has 100% to do with their religious belief.

Yes it is! Common sense does not fit in with their religion apparently. That's fine. That doesn't mean their children have to die now because of that. Their children need to be taken away as soon as possible. They can live with this "religion" in their prison cell. If they get gangrene, then they can decide "Now I will sit and pray for God's help to cure me"

[Third Eye]

Without trying to sound like an ass, if there are criminal charges brought against them, does the family hire a lawyer, or do they represent themselves and put it in god's hands?

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by MIAdragon

Its the 4th sentence in the first post.

Lets save "what constitutes an organized religion" for another time. Its really not an issue in this case IMO.

I disagree:

Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, ...

That one statement tells me quite a bit. They are not bound by any doctrine of what we all might consider established churches.

At the end of the day I feel there is going to be a degradation of our freedoms based on the interferrence of government and other outside sources in cases like this.

I still maintain that we are guaranteed a freedom of religion. That means practicing our faith as we please. This is all inclusive, atheists (if that is considered a religion), wicca, buddist, muslim, etc.

The basic thought process with everyone here seems to be that religion is bad and that nobody should be involved beyond being able to say that you have a religion and some even argue that point.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Third Eye

Without trying to sound like an ass, if there are criminal charges brought against them, does the family hire a lawyer, or do they represent themselves and put it in God's hands?

Look them up in the phone book and ask them.

What kind of question is that?

To prove neglect in this case some slick lawyer is going to have to prove that the family knew that she was diabetic (undiagnosed per the story) and that they intentionally withheld a trip to the doctor. I can't see them going down for it.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Yes it is! Common sense does not fit in with their religion apparently. That's fine. That doesn't mean their children have to die now because of that. Their children need to be taken away as soon as possible. They can live with this "religion" in their prison cell. If they get gangrene, then they can decide "Now I will sit and pray for God's help to cure me"

You are suggesting that the children be placed in foster care, a system that has seen far more children die from neglect than single family situations such as this.

Your judgement of the family should be toned down a bit, what goes around comes around. Remember - Judge not, lest ye be judged? It's coming around your way.

You need to study more about what you should do and less about what you feel emotionally.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

You are suggesting that the children be placed in foster care, a system that has seen far more children die from neglect than single family situations such as this.

After reading the article, it sounds like there was a relative that cared for the child.

[sedated]

Originally Posted by a1na2

It's not a common sense issue, it has 100% to do with their religious belief.

If beliefs contradict common sense, then both are the issue.

I, for one, hope religious zealots avoid doctors. Eventually the population will be a smarter place. (that thing called natural selection)

[Third Eye]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Look them up in the phone book and ask them.

What kind of question is that?

To prove neglect in this case some slick lawyer is going to have to prove that the family knew that she was diabetic (undiagnosed per the story) and that they intentionally withheld a trip to the doctor. I can't see them going down for it.

What kind of question is it? A very serious one. You wouldn't find it hypocritical if they did?

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

To prove neglect in this case some slick lawyer is going to have to prove that the family knew that she was diabetic (undiagnosed per the story) and that they intentionally withheld a trip to the doctor. I can't see them going down for it.

That's not true. If this girl really did have diabetic ketoacidosis, she suffered harsh conditions for a while. Any nurse can tell you that. Any diabetic specialist will tell you all the details.

I asked my mom last night. She's a diabetic specialist. She said the article's list of symptoms were spot on:

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

That's not true. If this girl really did have diabetic ketoacidosis, she suffered harsh conditions for a while. Any nurse can tell you that. Any diabetic specialist will tell you all the details.

I asked my mom last night. She's a diabetic specialist. She said the article's list of symptoms were spot on:

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

Again, you are asserting your values on someone else. You can't do that, you don't have the right.

What "any nurse" lived in the house with the Neumans?

Where was your Mom when this child was in the beginning stages of sickness?

Where were you when this was going on? I think you are solely responsible for not impressing on Mrs. Neuman that she needed to take this kid to the doctor.
You were negligent in protecting the life of this child. You need to be prosecuted for being negligent.

Ask Mrs. Neuman if she is a diabetic specialist. I doubt that she is, so there were no symptoms that made her feel it was diabetes.

Have you ever been feeling crappy and just didn't go to the doctor? If you say no, I'll call you a liar. Nobody goes to the doctor for every little complaint. How many people do you think may have died because they didn't know they were ill?

Your assertions are good for you, but you do not get to make that choice in other people's lives, especially when you have no clue as to what was going on other than a story in on the internet.

[Third Eye]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Again, you are asserting your values on someone else. You can't do that, you don't have the right.

And there it is, isn't it? Kinda like when some whackjob asserts their values on their underage daughter.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Again, you are asserting your values on someone else. You can't do that, you don't have the right.

Ask Mrs. Neuman if she is a diabetic specialist. I doubt that she is, so there were no symptoms that made her feel it was diabetes.

Have you ever been feeling crappy and just didn't go to the doctor? If you say no, I'll call you a liar. Nobody goes to the doctor for every little complaint. How many people do you think may have died because they didn't know they were ill?

Your assertions are good for you, but you do not get to make that choice in other people's lives, especially when you have no clue as to what was going on other than a story in on the internet.

She didn't have to think it was diabetes. She just had to know there was something wrong. She obviously did because she prayed to God instead of using her damn brain and getting her to the doctor.

Having excessive thirst and hunger for weeks is not "feeling crappy." Throwing up for weeks is not "feeling crappy." YOUR ****ING SENSE TELLS YOU SOMETHING IS WRONG AND IF YOU DON'T DO SOMETHING ABOU IT, THAT IS NEGLECT.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

What "any nurse" lived in the house with the Neumans?

Where was your Mom when this child was in the beginning stages of sickness?

Where were you when this was going on? I think you are solely responsible for not impressing on Mrs. Neuman that she needed to take this kid to the doctor.
You were negligent in protecting the life of this child. You need to be prosecuted for being negligent.

Oh.....kaaayyy.