All Star Snubs... - Page 2

Carlota69 · 07-01-2007, 01:26 PM

Which Snub disgusts you the most?

Mine is Orlando Cabrera--SS--LA Angels.

Not only is he not going to start the AS Game, but he may not even be there. His numbers at the plate are equal if not better than Jeters'.

OC--Avg...338 5 HR OBP .835 RBI 48
Jeter Avg...335 5 HR OBP .408 RBI 38

Fielding

OC --.998 4 errors (#1 in the league)

Jeter--.966 12 errors

I'm so irritated by the voting process and all these talking heads saying that Jeter should be the starter...

**alnorth** · 07-01-2007, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cochise

Jeter is bad in the field? He won the gold glove at shortstop each of the last 3 seasons.

Which speaks to the (lack of) intelligence for the gold glove voters.

Statistically, Derek Jeter is one of the *WORST* everyday defensive shortstops in modern baseball history, near dead-last on most of the fielding statistics that have been developed in recent years.

Jeter has fewer errors than many in most years because his range sucks so bad, that he doesnt get to hardly anything that an average shortstop should get to. He figuratively stands still as a statue, and cleanly fields stuff hit right at him.

Eleazar · 07-01-2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alnorth

Which speaks to the (lack of) intelligence for the gold glove voters.

The unintelligent gold glove voters are the managers and coaches. And they aren't allowed to vote for their own players.

**alnorth** · 07-01-2007, 03:45 PM

Shortstops by Zone Rating

Zone rating: The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone," as measured by STATS, Inc.

Edit: this definition from ESPN isnt 100% accurate. If a great shortstop fields a ball thats hit outside of his "zone", he is rewarded with an out, but if he misses a ball hit outside his "zone", he is not punished in the stat, because he wasnt expected to get to the ball anyway. Therefore, players with great range are rewarded with more putouts that dont count against them if missed.

Omar Vizquel, .908
Jose Reyes, .907
Bobby Crosby, .871
Adam Everett, .870
Rafael Furcal, .870
Khalil Greene, .862
Troy Tulowitzki, .859
Miguel Tejada, .858
Jason Bartlett, .852
Orlando Cabrera, .846
Alex Gonzalez, .839
Tony Pena Jr., .838
Juan Uribe, .837
Jack Wilson, .828
Julio Lugo, .824
Stephen Drew, .822
Jimmy Rollins, .819
Yuniesky Betancourt, .816
Carlos Guillen, .808
J.J. Hardy, .808
Cesar Izturis, .806
Edgar Renteria, .795
Jhonny Peralta, .786
Michael Young, .784
Brendan Harris, .778
Hanley Ramirez, .773
Derek Jeter, .756

So, in other words, of all the balls hit into an average shortstop's "Zone" that he should be reasonably expected to get to, the league leader Omar Vizquel of the Giants converts over 90% into outs, our own Tony Pena Jr, converts about 84%, and all-world wonder defensive guru Derek Jeter records a pitiful 75% into outs.

This isnt a one year mid-season outlier, Derek Jeter sucks every damned year, but the old-school baseball men say "to heck with all those new-fangled statistics, I see a good shortstop!"

The reason why Errors is not a great stat, is because a Jeter with crappy range may not get an error for not getting to a ball, because to the naked eye, it looks like a clean hit. A great shortstop that gets to a ball that most shortstops wouldnt have laid a glove on, but fails to make the play, may also be punished with an error because to the naked eye, it looked bad, but it usually would have gotten out of the infield with a Jeter type of SS.

HolmeZz · 07-01-2007, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cochise

The unintelligent gold glove voters are the managers and coaches. And they aren't allowed to vote for their own players.

Gold Gloves mean nothing. Bobby Abreu has won one and I think Rafael Palmeiro won one despite DHing 99% of that season.

Jeter's not a very good fielder at this point in his career. Can't go to his left to save his life.

**alnorth** · 07-01-2007, 04:07 PM

Our SS Tony Pena Jr is another reason why Errors are a bad stat. He's got quite a few compared to his peers, but thats mostly because he has a really good range. He gets to balls that to many other SS's would be unplayable and therefore unpunished, fails to record the out, and gets hit with the Error.

Eleazar · 07-01-2007, 04:26 PM

Instead of trying to quantify something that is exceedingly difficult to quantify, I would be convinced if you could explain why the managers and coaches in major league baseball think he's the best, when really he's the worst...?

RJ · 07-01-2007, 04:37 PM

I think most years the fans do a good job with the vote. Sure, there are always a couple of positions where a guy gets jobbed but the manager makes it up with his picks. Baseball's All Star game is still far and away the best of the major sports. IMO.

HolmeZz · 07-01-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cochise

Instead of trying to quantify something that is exceedingly difficult to quantify, I would be convinced if you could explain why the managers and coaches in major league baseball think he's the best, when really he's the worst...?

I agree about defensive statistics.

But as someone who gets to watch 90% of Jeter's games, I can tell you he's not very good defensively. He'll make some nice plays that end up on the highlight reel(which is what makes him completely overrated), but it's not reflective of his overall defense. His range is extremely poor. He doesn't get much that's hit to his left, and anything that he gets to his right is usually not hit hard. Also he's made his share of sloppy throws to first this year(though that was mostly early on this season).

dj56dt58 · 07-01-2007, 04:42 PM

Looks like the steroid using piece of shit got the starting lf spot over soriano

Demonpenz · 07-01-2007, 04:55 PM

As much as hate jeter. He is very clutch. 4 rings. first ballot hall of famer, leader, captain, he is everything you would want.

RJ · 07-01-2007, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demonpenz

As much as hate jeter. He is very clutch. 4 rings. first ballot hall of famer, leader, captain, he is everything you would want.

Agreed. I'm a full fledged, lifetime Yankee hater but I have to admit I admire Jeter. He makes plays and wins games. Baseball is a game of numbers but stats don't always the whole story.

Frazod · 07-01-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj56dt58

Looks like the steroid using piece of shit got the starting lf spot over soriano

Yeah, that's disgusting. I hate the Cubs, but Soriano is great.

Eleazar · 07-01-2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ

Agreed. I'm a full fledged, lifetime Yankee hater but I have to admit I admire Jeter. He makes plays and wins games. Baseball is a game of numbers but stats don't always the whole story.

I'm not saying that he is what he was at one time, or even that he's the best, but to say he's the worst is pretty out there.

dj56dt58 · 07-01-2007, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frazod

Yeah, that's disgusting. I hate the Cubs, but Soriano is great.

Better than Bonds is Plus he doesn't take steroids. Soriano was ahead in voting till right at the time they announced the starters. Theres a surprise..MLB wanted him to start all along especially with it being in SF.

Frazod · 07-01-2007, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj56dt58

Better than Bonds is Plus he doesn't take steroids. Soriano was ahead in voting till right at the time they announced the starters. Theres a surprise..MLB wanted him to start all along especially with it being in SF.

Yeah, I call shenanigans on that one.

Of course, that is the only place ON EARTH that he won't get booed.

07-01-2007, 01:26 PM
Carlota69 MVP Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Las Vegas Casino cash: $9925282	All Star Snubs... Which Snub disgusts you the most? Mine is Orlando Cabrera--SS--LA Angels. Not only is he not going to start the AS Game, but he may not even be there. His numbers at the plate are equal if not better than Jeters'. OC--Avg...338 5 HR OBP .835 RBI 48 Jeter Avg...335 5 HR OBP .408 RBI 38 Fielding OC --.998 4 errors (#1 in the league) Jeter--.966 12 errors I'm so irritated by the voting process and all these talking heads saying that Jeter should be the starter...
Posts: 6,592

07-01-2007, 03:45 PM	#18
alnorth . Join Date: Dec 2002 Casino cash: $57166239	Shortstops by Zone Rating Zone rating: The percentage of balls fielded by a player in his typical defensive "zone," as measured by STATS, Inc. Edit: this definition from ESPN isnt 100% accurate. If a great shortstop fields a ball thats hit outside of his "zone", he is rewarded with an out, but if he misses a ball hit outside his "zone", he is not punished in the stat, because he wasnt expected to get to the ball anyway. Therefore, players with great range are rewarded with more putouts that dont count against them if missed. Omar Vizquel, .908 Jose Reyes, .907 Bobby Crosby, .871 Adam Everett, .870 Rafael Furcal, .870 Khalil Greene, .862 Troy Tulowitzki, .859 Miguel Tejada, .858 Jason Bartlett, .852 Orlando Cabrera, .846 Alex Gonzalez, .839 Tony Pena Jr., .838 Juan Uribe, .837 Jack Wilson, .828 Julio Lugo, .824 Stephen Drew, .822 Jimmy Rollins, .819 Yuniesky Betancourt, .816 Carlos Guillen, .808 J.J. Hardy, .808 Cesar Izturis, .806 Edgar Renteria, .795 Jhonny Peralta, .786 Michael Young, .784 Brendan Harris, .778 Hanley Ramirez, .773 Derek Jeter, .756 So, in other words, of all the balls hit into an average shortstop's "Zone" that he should be reasonably expected to get to, the league leader Omar Vizquel of the Giants converts over 90% into outs, our own Tony Pena Jr, converts about 84%, and all-world wonder defensive guru Derek Jeter records a pitiful 75% into outs. This isnt a one year mid-season outlier, Derek Jeter sucks every damned year, but the old-school baseball men say "to heck with all those new-fangled statistics, I see a good shortstop!" The reason why Errors is not a great stat, is because a Jeter with crappy range may not get an error for not getting to a ball, because to the naked eye, it looks like a clean hit. A great shortstop that gets to a ball that most shortstops wouldnt have laid a glove on, but fails to make the play, may also be punished with an error because to the naked eye, it looked bad, but it usually would have gotten out of the infield with a Jeter type of SS. __________________ how many emo kids does it take to change a lightbulb? HOW MANY?! none they just sit in the dark and cry Last edited by alnorth; 07-01-2007 at 03:57 PM..
Posts: 36,130

07-01-2007, 04:07 PM	#20
alnorth . Join Date: Dec 2002 Casino cash: $57166239	Our SS Tony Pena Jr is another reason why Errors are a bad stat. He's got quite a few compared to his peers, but thats mostly because he has a really good range. He gets to balls that to many other SS's would be unplayable and therefore unpunished, fails to record the out, and gets hit with the Error. __________________ how many emo kids does it take to change a lightbulb? HOW MANY?! none they just sit in the dark and cry
Posts: 36,130

07-01-2007, 04:26 PM	#21
Eleazar Beyond the Rapids Join Date: May 2003 Location: Langley, VA Casino cash: $-370000	Instead of trying to quantify something that is exceedingly difficult to quantify, I would be convinced if you could explain why the managers and coaches in major league baseball think he's the best, when really he's the worst...?
Posts: 80,659

07-01-2007, 04:37 PM	#22
RJ Supporter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: In a shotgun shack Casino cash: $9955202	I think most years the fans do a good job with the vote. Sure, there are always a couple of positions where a guy gets jobbed but the manager makes it up with his picks. Baseball's All Star game is still far and away the best of the major sports. IMO.
Posts: 14,931

07-01-2007, 04:42 PM	#24
dj56dt58 Banned Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Missouri Casino cash: $9960055	Looks like the steroid using piece of shit got the starting lf spot over soriano
Posts: 6,361

07-01-2007, 04:55 PM	#25
Demonpenz Woman should only make babies Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Apartment "G UNIT!" Casino cash: $2972136	As much as hate jeter. He is very clutch. 4 rings. first ballot hall of famer, leader, captain, he is everything you would want. __________________
Posts: 54,298