These "parents" should face criminal charges

[DaneMcCloud]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by MIAdragon

Id just like to think that someone is looking out for those who cant do it themselves. What ever happens to the Parents the child is the one that looses.

Again, you are assuming, based on a very biased and incomplete assessment, that the parents were not looking out for their kid to the best of their ability. The best of their ability is not measured by what you or I think is the right thing to do, it is based on what they think is the best thing to do at the time that they did it. In this case they did not feel that the sickness was as bad as it obviously was.

I can't say this enough, we don't have to like what happened and more than likely none of us would ever let that happen to our family intentionally, but what if? What if your kid had what you considered a small problem and you didn't react with the right amount of responsibility and they died. Are you going to accept criminal litigation because you didn't know it was that serious?

How many people have choked to death because nobody noticed that they were turning blue? How many people have choked to death with people watching because they thought they were goofing around? That may sound outrageous, but things like that happen.

Face it, life is hard and then you die and no matter how hard you try to avoid the dying part you cannot do it. You don't want to die, I don't want to die, but we are going to, it's just a matter of time.

Blaming these people for doing what they thought was right in the eyes of their God does nothing to change the fact that it will happen again and again and there will be nothing that you can do about it, nor should you feel that it is your responsibility to interfere in their life.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Your faith does not preclude using doctors so you don't really have a valid point to make here. I'm not being a smart ass, but those people did not feel that the doctor was the answer in this situation.

I would never wait to take my kid or grand kid to the doctor, but I am not those people and I do not have the same religious belief that they did. I also know that it is not my job to make sure that everyone that has a kid does exactly the right thing according to a1na2, or coach or jensen or whomever. I do not have the right to impose my belief system on them and neither does anyone else.

Actually, I feel, just like everyone else in here, have a valid point in here. I know you aren't being a smart ass, you're just sharing your opinion, and you are entitled to your own opinion, just like everybody else is to theirs.

My opinion, I just think they made a wrong decision, becuase they did not consult the doctor when it was OBVIOUS that the child's condition has been getting worse each passing day. But how could they not feel that the doctor was the answer in this solution? It's like if you walked by a person who is bleeding badly on the side of the sidewalk/alleyway, who just got the shit kicked out of them by a group of thugs, should you just ignore him and walk away? Deny him any help?

It's like "Oh she'll be okay, it's just a cold, she'll get over it. We'll pray to God for help." Look, praying and asking for help is great, and I respect that, but as a person, YOU have to do your part, in order for it to work. In order to prevent it, in other words, God's miracle, the doctor/nurse would have positively ID'd the sickness and provide the proper treatment, and this child would be back out playing in the sandbox in no time. That's God's miracle, to me.

I'm not telling them or anybody how to "live" their lives, but what I am telling everybody here is that I believe common sense was missing in this part, regardless of religion.

[crazycoffey]

I wonder if this shit can be moved to DC....

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CrazyCoffey

I wonder if this shit can be moved to DC....

Uh, doubt it. It is missing the following criterias

1. Bush
2. Iraq
3. Terrorists
4. Obama/Clinton/McCain
5. Political scandals

Maybe the next time though.

[crazycoffey]

Originally Posted by Coach

Uh, doubt it. It is missing the following criterias

1. Bush - is hated or liked by everyone on the board
2. Iraq - never should have went, but now we are "invested" - I may be going over soon
3. Terrorists - only good terrorist is a dead terrorist
4. Obama/Clinton/McCain - McCain, the lesser of the three evils
5. Political scandals - military intelligence (are we playing the oxymoron game?)

Maybe the next time though.

Now we filled all the criteria, pack your bags!

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Coach

Actually, I feel, just like everyone else in here, have a valid point in here. I know you aren't being a smart ass, you're just sharing your opinion, and you are entitled to your own opinion, just like everybody else is to theirs.

My opinion, I just think they made a wrong decision, becuase they did not consult the doctor when it was OBVIOUS that the child's condition has been getting worse each passing day. But how could they not feel that the doctor was the answer in this solution? It's like if you walked by a person who is bleeding badly on the side of the sidewalk/alleyway, who just got the shit kicked out of them by a group of thugs, should you just ignore him and walk away? Deny him any help?

It's like "Oh she'll be okay, it's just a cold, she'll get over it. We'll pray to God for help." Look, praying and asking for help is great, and I respect that, but as a person, YOU have to do your part, in order for it to work. In order to prevent it, in other words, God's miracle, the doctor/nurse would have positively ID'd the sickness and provide the proper treatment, and this child would be back out playing in the sandbox in no time. That's God's miracle, to me.

I'm not telling them or anybody how to "live" their lives, but what I am telling everybody here is that I believe common sense was missing in this part, regardless of religion.

I agree with this but then again I don't. Faith has alarge part in what you do when you are in a religion that you believe in.

Some don't believe that you have to do more than ask. I do not think these people prayed over the little girl and walked away. I think they did everything they knew to do to continue helping her. The did not have the need or desire or belief (however way you want to put it) to depend on a doctor to handle this situation.

And I maintain that we cannot force our perceptions of right and wrong into this case as we are not living in their shoes. Those people and the God they serve have to come to grips with the situation. We can, and should, do nothing regarding the incident other than express our understanding of why they acted as they did or the overwhelming outrage shown here about why they acted as they did.

It is not in our charge to judge their actions, nor should it be IMO.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by CrazyCoffey

Now we filled all the criteria, pack your bags!

Oh coffey, quit y'er whining. If it gets moved, it gets moved. There have been far worse examples of posts here that should have been moved. I think you were even a part of some of them.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by a1na2

What I find appalling is that you have basically told these people that they didn't love their kid or do what ever was within their belief to help that kid. You are looking in from the outside and therefore cannot know what was in their head or in their heart.

This is not a simple case of neglect as you wish it was. The parents are caring parents, just because they do not fit your expectation does not diminish that fact. My guess would be that you have never had faith in God or anything else other than your own smugness.

What I've noticed is that you, and others like you, feel the need to intrude where you do not belong. As was said many times by me and others, it is a shame that that girl died because the parents had faith in their beliefs. There is no law that was broken in this situation. Parents treated a sick child to the best of their ability without depending on someone else other than their God and their Faith. You can't handle the fact that people believe in their creator so much that they could take what you consider a risk with the life of their child.

Have you ever put a kid in your car without a seatbelt? If you have you are more guilty of neglect than this family is, not to mention that you have actually broken a law. These people did what they felt was right based on their religious belief. You cannot force your personal will on anyone in this case.

As for your attempt to insult and call me names, well good for you, does it make you feel llike a big man? I've got to tell you, I've been there and done that and all you are doing is admitting that you do not have an answer and are striking out at anyone that doesn't like your particular take on the situation.

Let the case go to court and you will find out that they are not criminally liable for believing in God nor are they going to be prosecuted for not going to a doctor because they could not identify a sickness that could have been any one of a number of minor but experated health problems.

First off, I've NEVER put a child in a car without a seatbelt.

That being said, you're a fucking moron. Boo-hoo. No, it doesn't make me "feel like a big man" because in EVERY sense, I AM A BIGGER MAN THAN YOU.

The belief that "God" will somehow heal a sick child is outright lunacy. LUNACY. Without modern medicine, there would be about 5 BILLION less people on this planet. 5 BILLION. Do you think that "God" doesn't want them here because of man-made medicine and advances in science?

Again, how you can defend the actions of this sick and demented family is well beyond the ability for me to comprehend.

It's obvious (and has been obvious for years, whether you post as Tom Ca$h, Believer, or whatever) that you're a kook, nutjob, whacko. And I am truly sorry for anyone outside of this forum that knows you and has to put up with your ridiculous, superstitious drivel.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

First off, I've NEVER put a child in a car without a seatbelt.

That being said, you're a fucking moron. Boo-hoo. No, it doesn't make me "feel like a big man" because in EVERY sense, I AM A BIGGER MAN THAN YOU.

The belief that "God" will somehow heal a sick child is outright lunacy. LUNACY. Without modern medicine, there would be about 5 BILLION less people on this planet. 5 BILLION. Do you think that "God" doesn't want them here because of man-made medicine and advances in science?

Again, how you can defend the actions of this sick and demented family is well beyond the ability for me to comprehend.

It's obvious (and has been obvious for years, whether you post as Tom Ca$h, Believer, or whatever) that you're a kook, nutjob, whacko. And I am truly sorry for anyone outside of this forum that knows you and has to put up with your ridiculous, superstitious drivel.

The response that you made shows me that you are not an adult and that you have no answer to the situatation.

Your lack of understanding of the situation in no way makes your view right.

You are attacking me by calling me names which goes further to prove my point that you cannot ever understand something that is based on someone's relligion.

Grow up dude, being childish and petty only makes you look bad.

[Duck Dog]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Why would I have to spend time in medical journals? I use doctors as needed and stay within the confines of my faith.

I don't think you are the crazy one. You seem quit normal to me. (well no less or more normal than the rest of the peeps around here)

But I think parents have a responsiblity to provide the best care availbale to their children and if they don't they should be held responsible. Faith in God is no excuss for not providing that care. The child died. They obviously made the wrong decision and now they should pay for it.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by a1na2

The response that you made shows me that you are not an adult and that you have no answer to the situatation.

Your lack of understanding of the situation in no way makes your view right.

You are attacking me by calling me names which goes further to prove my point that you cannot ever understand something that is based on someone's relligion.

Grow up dude, being childish and petty only makes you look bad.

Personally Tom, I don't think you should be treated as an adult. You're a hypocritical, two-faced POS. Period.

If these "parents" had said they didn't take their child to the doctor in the name of Satan, you'd be screaming for prison time (or worse).

If these "parents" were Scientologists, you'd be screaming for prison time (or worse).

If these "parents" were Muslims, you'd be screaming for prison time (or worse).

The only reason you're defending them is for you antiquated, ridiculous belief that an invisible man in the sky is somehow going to cure their daughter of a treatable disease, despite the fact that "prayer" or belief in God has NEVER healed anyone of dangerous and deadly disease.

You want to take Jesus Christ as your Lord & Saviour? Fine. You want to believe that you'll go to heaven by believing? Fine.

But the minute you cross the line into psychotic mysticism is the point in which all bets are off. We live in a civilized society in the 21st century (well, MOST of us do) in America and child endangerment and allowing a child to just whither away and die when medical care could have saved her life is simply barbaric, cruel, uncalled for and criminal.

Get off your fucking religious high horse.

[CosmicPal]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud;

...and allowing a child to just whither away and die when medical care could have saved her life is simply barbaric, cruel, uncalled for and criminal.

You forgot blatantly stupid, ignorant, awful, sad, terrible, dumb, frightening, horrible, disgusting, and a great many other adjectives.

[DenverChief]

One poster on here reminds me of listening to a plumber discuss the finer points of astro-physics

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Personally Tom, I don't think you should be treated as an adult. You're a hypocritical, two-faced POS. Period.

If these "parents" had said they didn't take their child to the doctor in the name of Satan, you'd be screaming for prison time (or worse).

If these "parents" were Scientologists, you'd be screaming for prison time (or worse).

If these "parents" were Muslims, you'd be screaming for prison time (or worse).

The only reason you're defending them is for you antiquated, ridiculous belief that an invisible man in the sky is somehow going to cure their daughter of a treatable disease, despite the fact that "prayer" or belief in God has NEVER healed anyone of dangerous and deadly disease.

You want to take Jesus Christ as your Lord & Saviour? Fine. You want to believe that you'll go to heaven by believing? Fine.

But the minute you cross the line into psychotic mysticism is the point in which all bets are off. We live in a civilized society in the 21st century (well, MOST of us do) in America and child endangerment and allowing a child to just whither away and die when medical care could have saved her life is simply barbaric, cruel, uncalled for and criminal.

Get off your fucking religious high horse.

It's amazing that all you can do is revert to name calling and insults.


What my stand is has nothing to do with their religion, nor my religion and it has absolutely nothing to do with you. Your will and your concept of right and wrong has nothing to do with this family. They made a choice based on what they believed and felt, and the part that you are forgetting, or do not have the capacity to understand is that
IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHATSOEVER!

I have nothing to do with Scientology, I have nothing to do with any other group and that is just the point, it's none of my business just as it is none of your business.

As a child you are outraged and calling me names to the nth degree and it only makes you look like an uneducated fool, which I personally feel that you have to be to not understand that whatever they did, why they did it and the results of what they did is ABSOLUTELY NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHATSOEVER!

Now, Mr. "I'm so much smarter and better than the rest of the world"
Which part of the equation do you misunderstand? What law did they break? They did what they could, when they could, with the means that they could. Where is the criminal intent? What law did they break?

Just because you feel that it is wrong does not mean that they broke laws. Again, it is none of your business and you are totally out of place in telling us that they should go to jail or be prosecuted in any other manner. IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

On the day that you take custody of their remaining children and are financially responsible for them let me know what you are going to do.

Until then get off your holier than thou attitude and realize that the situation is explainable, and that is what I've been doing, explaining what the did based on my life experience. And you should always remember, what they did is:

NONE OF OUR BUSINESS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!

Now, as you attempted to say in so many words: As far as I'm concerned you can go straight to hell and live with your own ass.[/SIZE]

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by CosmicPal

You forgot blatantly stupid, ignorant, awful, sad, terrible, dumb, frightening, horrible, disgusting, and a great many other adjectives.

He also forgot that it's none of his business. Or yours, or mine, or anyone outside the immediate family of the child that died.