Why Turk McBride Sucks - Page 3

'Hamas' Jenkins · 01-01-2008, 06:02 PM

Other than the fact that we see him prove it on the field.

The McBride pick was a waste of a prime draft spot

The McBride pick cost us a chance at Ryan Kalil

The McBride pick may very well cause us to pass on Sedrick Ellis and take a less effective player like Jake Long because Herm will think that Turk still has potential.

fuck.

**morphius** · 01-01-2008, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

No. Not really. I believe ChiefsPlanet research has proven that, during Carl's tenure, somewhere around 10% of our draft picks have worked out in the sense that they actually helped the team win actual games during the actual football season.

FAX

Interestingly enough, without looking at names, and including IR I compared Denver and KC number of draft picks on the team...

16 of 64 Denver 25%
21 of 71 KC 29.5%

morphius
looked at a bunch of other teams, but they didn't have it easily available.

ChiefsLV · 01-01-2008, 07:57 PM

IIRC, wasn't there a point on Hard Knocks where one of the Chiefs' staff was commenting on how Turk was getting whipped by scrub offensive linemen that a second round pick should be able to handle?

Hydrae · 01-01-2008, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

I think about the twin turds the same way I think about Croyle. It's really difficult to know if they're going to pan out or not at this point, Mr. 'Hamas' Jenkins.

The unfortunate fact is that our coaching staff is a gaggle of knuckleheads trying to organize a goat fuck. All we really know is that it's not suitable for small children, pregnant women, or anybody with a pacemaker or a stent.

As for affecting this year's draft, you may be right. Either way, it's going to be interesting to see what our brain trust does. If the reports are true that we're not planning to be very active in FA, they better draft their asses off.

FAX

Ah, the true reason why Stent Green was traded in the offseason. It was for his health!

**Skip Towne** · 01-01-2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAX

I think about the twin turds the same way I think about Croyle. It's really difficult to know if they're going to pan out or not at this point, Mr. 'Hamas' Jenkins.

The unfortunate fact is that our coaching staff is a gaggle of knuckleheads trying to organize a goat fuck. All we really know is that it's not suitable for small children, pregnant women, or anybody with a pacemaker or a stent.

As for affecting this year's draft, you may be right. Either way, it's going to be interesting to see what our brain trust does. If the reports are true that we're not planning to be very active in FA, they better draft their asses off.

FAX

That might be fun. I'd like to see a guy who has had his ass drafted off.

Brock · 01-01-2008, 08:30 PM

I doubt McBride would keep them from drafting the best DT on the board. There are only a couple of positions where the existing player is going to have any effect on it whatsoever, IMO. Sorry, Croyle backers, QB isn't one of them.

**OnTheWarpath15** · 01-01-2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brock

I doubt McBride would keep them from drafting the best DT on the board. There are only a couple of positions where the existing player is going to have any effect on it whatsoever, IMO. Sorry, Croyle backers, QB isn't one of them.

I can only think of one, RB.

Other than that, we need help EVERYWHERE.

Ah, nevermind. Two positions.

Punter and RB.

**Rain Man** · 01-01-2008, 09:01 PM

Let's look at Carl's second-round picks, and the next five picks following his picks. We'll ignore 2006 and 2007 since the jury is still out on McBride and Pollard.

When we evaluate, I recognize that there are times when we may simply not need a player at a position that was drafted. Let's note that. Also, I don't expect Carl to ALWAYS pick the best player of the six, because there's more uncertainty in drafting than that would make possible. However, I would expect him to, on average, get one of the two or three best who are available.

Scoring: If Carl got the best of the 6, he gets 6 points. If he got the worst, he gets 1 point. On average, I want to see him get 4.5 if he's decent at this.

2005 - No pick

2004 - We took Siavii with our first pick. The next five were:

5 (37) DET Teddy Lehman LB Oklahoma
6 (38) PIT Ricardo Colclough DB Tusculum
7 (39) JAC Daryl Smith LB Georgia Tech
8 (40) TEN Ben Troupe TE Florida
9 (41) DEN Tatum Bell RB Oklahoma State

In other words, we got the worst pick of the prospects, even though I'm not sure how all of these guys worked out.. Carl's score: 1 out of 6, and it would be lower if possible.

We had another second-round pick in 2004, which we used on Kris Wilson. The next five selections were:

30 (62) CAR Keary Colbert WR USC
31 (63) NWE Marquise Hill DE Louisiana State
Round 3
Rd (OV) Team Name Pos College
1 (64) ARI Darnell Dockett DE Florida State
2 (65) SDG Nate Kaeding K Iowa
3 (66) SDG Nick Hardwick C Purdue

Hill is an asterisk since he died, and hasn't Colbert been a bust? But I would've liked the other three picks better. I give Carl 3 out of 6, maybe 4 if I'm in a good mood. I'm not, since we were 4-12.

2003

We took Kawika Mitchell. The next five picks were:

16 (48) BUF Chris Kelsay DE Nebraska
17 (49) MIA Eddie Moore LB Tennessee
18 (50) CAR Bruce Nelson C Iowa
19 (51) DEN Terry Pierce LB Kansas State
20 (52) CLE Chaun Thompson LB West Texas A&M

Pretty much a bunch of busts other than Kelsay. I grudgingly give Carl's bust a 5 out of 6. Correct me if I'm wrong.

2002 - We drafted Eddie Freeman. The next five picks were:

12 (44) NOR LeCharles Bentley C Ohio State
13 (45) TEN Tank Williams DB Stanford
14 (46) NYG Tim Carter WR Auburn
15 (47) CLE Andre Davis WR Virginia Tech
16 (48) SDG Reche Caldwell WR Florida

Bentley would be nice to have. Is he back from his injury last year? Couple of mediocre wide receivers, but still better than Freeman. I think Williams got on the field, and Carter returned some kicks. I give Carl's bust a 1 out of 6, though acknowledging that a couple of these others were almost as bad.

2000 - We took Bartee. The next five were:

24 (55) MIN Fred Robbins DT Wake Forest
25 (56) MIN Michael Boireau DE Miami (FL)
26 (57) CAR Deon Grant DB Tennessee
27 (58) BUF Travares Tillman DB Georgia Tech
28 (59) IND Marcus Washington DE Auburn

I have no idea how productive these guys were. I suspect that Bartee didn't beat any of them in career interceptions, though. I think the last three played a bit, and maybe Robbins. Bartee did have an eight-year career, if you can call it that. It's a tough call, but I'll give Carl a 3 out of 6. Shockingly, it could be as high as 5 out of 6.

1999 - We took Mike Cloud. The next five were:

24 (55) DAL Solomon Page T West Virginia
25 (56) JAC Larry Smith DT Florida State
26 (57) NYJ Randy Thomas G Mississippi State
27 (58) DEN Montae Reagor LB Texas Tech
28 (59) PIT Scott Shields DB Weber State

Thomas is the obvious winner. Reagor had a couple of good years, maybe Page. I'd give Carl a 4 out of 6.

1998 - No pick

1997 - We took Kevin Lockett. The next five picks were:

18 (48) IND Adam Meadows T Georgia
19 (49) MIN Torrian Gray DB Virginia Tech
20 (50) JAC Mike Logan DB West Virginia
21 (51) WAS Greg Jones LB Colorado
22 (52) BUF Marcellus Wiley DE Columbia

Would've loved to have had Meadows or Wiley instead of Lockett. However, I have no idea who Gray and Logan are, and Lockett at least played. I would give Carl a 4 out of 6.

1996 - We took Reggie Tongue. The next five picks were:

29 (59) STL Ernie Conwell TE Washington
30 (60) JAC Michael Cheever C Georgia Tech
31 (61) PHI Brian Dawkins DB Clemson
Round 3
Rd (OV) Team Name Pos College
1 (62) NYJ Ray Mickens DB Texas A&M
2 (63) JAC Aaron Beasley DB West Virginia

Obviously, Dawkins was the pick here. Beasley and Conwell had reasonable careers, but I would give Carl a 5 out of 6.

1994 - We took Donnell Bennett. The next five picks were:

30 (59) NYG Jason Sehorn DB USC
31 (60) HOO Jeremy Nunley DE Alabama
32 (61) BUF Lonnie Johnson TE Florida State
33 (62) SFO Tyrone Drakeford DB Virginia Tech
34 (63) SDG Vaughn Parker G UCLA

Sehorn, Johnson, and Parker were all productive, and I think Drakeford was, too. Bennett was a starter for a while, though. I would give Carl a 4 out of 6, spotting Sehorn and Johnson.

1993 - No pick

1992 - We took Matt Blundin. The next five picks were:

13 (41) NYG Phillippi Sparks DB Arizona State
14 (42) NYJ Kurt Barber LB USC
15 (43) MIA Eddie Blake DT Auburn
16 (44) TAM Courtney Hawkins WR Michigan State
17 (45) SFO Amp Lee RB Florida State

Sparks, Lee, and Hawkins were all productive. I have no idea about Blake and Barber. I'll give Carl a 2 out of 6 and split the difference. Could easily be a 1.

1991 - We took Joe Valerio, the best receiving tackle in league history. The next five picks were:

24 (51) SEA Doug Thomas WR Clemson
25 (52) CIN Lamar Rogers DE Auburn
26 (53) SFO John Johnson LB Clemson
27 (54) BUF Phil Hansen DE North Dakota State
28 (55) NYG Kanavis McGhee LB Colorado

Hansen would've been a good pick, as well as McGhee. Don't know about the others. I'll be generous and give Carl a 4 out of 6.

1990 - We took Tim Grunhard. The next five picks were:

16 (41) HOO Jeff Alm DT Notre Dame
17 (42) BUF Carwell Gardner RB Louisville
18 (43) PIT Kenny Davidson DE Louisiana State
19 (44) NOR Vince Buck DB Central State (OH)
20 (45) CLE Leroy Hoard RB Michigan

Hoard and Gardner were good, but Carl scores a 6 here.

1989 - We took Mike Elkins. The next five picks were:

5 (33) TAM Danny Peebles WR North Carolina State
6 (34) PIT Carnell Lake DB UCLA
7 (35) CIN Eric Ball RB UCLA
8 (36) CHI John Roper LB Texas A&M
9 (37) SDG Courtney Hall C Rice

Wow. Lake and Hall would've ruled. I think Ball had a little playing time, and not sure about Peebles and Roper. I'll be generous and give Carl a 2 out of 6.

So our scoring for Carl is:

2004 - 1
2004 - 3
2003 - 5
2002 - 1
2000 - 3
1999 - 4
1997 - 4
1996 - 5
1994 - 4
1992 - 2
1991 - 4
1990 - 6
1989 - 2

Average: 44 points out of a possible 78, or an average of 3.4. This means that of the six top players, Carl consistently can be counted on to select the 3rd or 4th best of the 6. While I can't unilaterally condemn this without comparing it to other GMs, I think I would hope that a GM would consistently get the 2nd or 3rd best.

The other interesting issue is his performance in the Marty era vs. the post-Marty era. In the Marty era, his average score was 3.8. In the post-Marty era, his average has been 2.8.

KCwolf · 01-01-2008, 09:08 PM

That is some pretty damn good stats....well done fellow Chiefs fan.
Rep.....if I knew what that meant......

Stinger · 01-01-2008, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

The McBride pick was a waste of a prime draft spot

The McBride pick cost us a chance at Ryan Kalil

As posted in another thread....

I believe Mario Williams with Houston had the same things said about him last year and Reggie Bush was the clear winner in that draft. Just curious where those people are now?

Rookies in a brand new defensive schemes seem to take a year or two to get up to speed. Look at DJ... he has consitantly gotten better after his rookie year. What more could you ask?

And well it not like don't have time to wait see ... we are Chiefs fans after all what is a couple more years.

'Hamas' Jenkins · 01-01-2008, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRock

I thought you were rallying against the idea of drafting for need. Now we should have done that instead of taking Turk?

Regardless, I really can't imagine Herm sitting there on draft day going "Well, this DT is the highest rated player on our board and one of the 4-5 best players in this draft. But, fuck 'im, we've got TURK MCBRIDE!"

Kalil and Satele were the BPsA when we were picking, it was a perfect storm and we fucked it up.

KCFalcon59 · 01-01-2008, 09:45 PM

It's the chiefs goddamned philosophy to reach after their 1st pick. Heck they have even reached a few times on their 1st pick instead of taking the BAA. They think they are so smart and can find the diamonds in the rough but rarely ever get one.

FAX · 01-01-2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphius

Interestingly enough, without looking at names, and including IR I compared Denver and KC number of draft picks on the team...

16 of 64 Denver 25%
21 of 71 KC 29.5%

morphius
looked at a bunch of other teams, but they didn't have it easily available.

Current contributors, Mr. morphius peep mod?

Some time ago, I reviewed all Carl's picks since DT (there were about 120 or so) and counted all the live bodies that one could reasonably term an "impact" player. I think I got to about 10 or so before I started reaching. There are probably more, but someone else did a similar thing, if I remember correctly, and came up with a similar result.

Nevertheless, whatever the number, our draft history in terms of solid guys who contribute to Chiefs wins over time and/or are successful in the NFL is not particularly stellar under Carl.

FAX

FAX · 01-01-2008, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

I don't know about McBride yet, but I think it is true that our second-round drafts inevitably stink. I think the reason is that Carl always selects someone at this pick with "good measurables" who wasn't on the traditional draft board, and it pretty much never works out. After 19 years, he's still never figured out that production on the field is what counts.

19 years of Carl's drafts, and what do these guys have in common, besides general suckage. Grunhard and Tongue are the only two who have been decent players for us.

2007 - Turk McBride
2006 - Bernard Pollard
2005 - (Trade for Surtain)
2004 - Junior Siavii/Kris Wilson
2003 - Kawika Mitchell
2002 - Eddie Freeman
2001 - (Traded for something I can't remember)
2000 - William Bartee
1999 - Mike Cloud
1998 - (Traded for something I can't remember)
1997 - Kevin Lockett
1996 - Reggie Tongue
1995 - (Traded for something I can't remember)
1994 - Donnell Bennett
1993 - (Traded for something I can't remember)
1992 - Darren Mickell
1991 - Joe Valerio
1990 - Tim Grunhard
1989 - Mike Elkins

It's posts like these that make me want to put on a blindfold, saddle up a giant, poisonous toad, and ride that bastard in the dead of night straight into icy rapids.

FAX

01-01-2008, 06:02 PM
'Hamas' Jenkins Now you've pissed me off! Join Date: Jan 2006 Casino cash: $7939572	Why Turk McBride Sucks Other than the fact that we see him prove it on the field. The McBride pick was a waste of a prime draft spot The McBride pick cost us a chance at Ryan Kalil The McBride pick may very well cause us to pass on Sedrick Ellis and take a less effective player like Jake Long because Herm will think that Turk still has potential. fuck.
Posts: 74,853

01-01-2008, 07:57 PM	#32
ChiefsLV Starter Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV Casino cash: $6952003	IIRC, wasn't there a point on Hard Knocks where one of the Chiefs' staff was commenting on how Turk was getting whipped by scrub offensive linemen that a second round pick should be able to handle?
Posts: 998

01-01-2008, 08:30 PM	#35
Brock Say hello to my little friend Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Larryville Casino cash: $9598422	I doubt McBride would keep them from drafting the best DT on the board. There are only a couple of positions where the existing player is going to have any effect on it whatsoever, IMO. Sorry, Croyle backers, QB isn't one of them.
Posts: 47,314

01-01-2008, 09:01 PM	#37
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $2928491 VARSITY	Let's look at Carl's second-round picks, and the next five picks following his picks. We'll ignore 2006 and 2007 since the jury is still out on McBride and Pollard. When we evaluate, I recognize that there are times when we may simply not need a player at a position that was drafted. Let's note that. Also, I don't expect Carl to ALWAYS pick the best player of the six, because there's more uncertainty in drafting than that would make possible. However, I would expect him to, on average, get one of the two or three best who are available. Scoring: If Carl got the best of the 6, he gets 6 points. If he got the worst, he gets 1 point. On average, I want to see him get 4.5 if he's decent at this. 2005 - No pick 2004 - We took Siavii with our first pick. The next five were: 5 (37) DET Teddy Lehman LB Oklahoma 6 (38) PIT Ricardo Colclough DB Tusculum 7 (39) JAC Daryl Smith LB Georgia Tech 8 (40) TEN Ben Troupe TE Florida 9 (41) DEN Tatum Bell RB Oklahoma State In other words, we got the worst pick of the prospects, even though I'm not sure how all of these guys worked out.. Carl's score: 1 out of 6, and it would be lower if possible. We had another second-round pick in 2004, which we used on Kris Wilson. The next five selections were: 30 (62) CAR Keary Colbert WR USC 31 (63) NWE Marquise Hill DE Louisiana State Round 3 Rd (OV) Team Name Pos College 1 (64) ARI Darnell Dockett DE Florida State 2 (65) SDG Nate Kaeding K Iowa 3 (66) SDG Nick Hardwick C Purdue Hill is an asterisk since he died, and hasn't Colbert been a bust? But I would've liked the other three picks better. I give Carl 3 out of 6, maybe 4 if I'm in a good mood. I'm not, since we were 4-12. 2003 We took Kawika Mitchell. The next five picks were: 16 (48) BUF Chris Kelsay DE Nebraska 17 (49) MIA Eddie Moore LB Tennessee 18 (50) CAR Bruce Nelson C Iowa 19 (51) DEN Terry Pierce LB Kansas State 20 (52) CLE Chaun Thompson LB West Texas A&M Pretty much a bunch of busts other than Kelsay. I grudgingly give Carl's bust a 5 out of 6. Correct me if I'm wrong. 2002 - We drafted Eddie Freeman. The next five picks were: 12 (44) NOR LeCharles Bentley C Ohio State 13 (45) TEN Tank Williams DB Stanford 14 (46) NYG Tim Carter WR Auburn 15 (47) CLE Andre Davis WR Virginia Tech 16 (48) SDG Reche Caldwell WR Florida Bentley would be nice to have. Is he back from his injury last year? Couple of mediocre wide receivers, but still better than Freeman. I think Williams got on the field, and Carter returned some kicks. I give Carl's bust a 1 out of 6, though acknowledging that a couple of these others were almost as bad. 2000 - We took Bartee. The next five were: 24 (55) MIN Fred Robbins DT Wake Forest 25 (56) MIN Michael Boireau DE Miami (FL) 26 (57) CAR Deon Grant DB Tennessee 27 (58) BUF Travares Tillman DB Georgia Tech 28 (59) IND Marcus Washington DE Auburn I have no idea how productive these guys were. I suspect that Bartee didn't beat any of them in career interceptions, though. I think the last three played a bit, and maybe Robbins. Bartee did have an eight-year career, if you can call it that. It's a tough call, but I'll give Carl a 3 out of 6. Shockingly, it could be as high as 5 out of 6. 1999 - We took Mike Cloud. The next five were: 24 (55) DAL Solomon Page T West Virginia 25 (56) JAC Larry Smith DT Florida State 26 (57) NYJ Randy Thomas G Mississippi State 27 (58) DEN Montae Reagor LB Texas Tech 28 (59) PIT Scott Shields DB Weber State Thomas is the obvious winner. Reagor had a couple of good years, maybe Page. I'd give Carl a 4 out of 6. 1998 - No pick 1997 - We took Kevin Lockett. The next five picks were: 18 (48) IND Adam Meadows T Georgia 19 (49) MIN Torrian Gray DB Virginia Tech 20 (50) JAC Mike Logan DB West Virginia 21 (51) WAS Greg Jones LB Colorado 22 (52) BUF Marcellus Wiley DE Columbia Would've loved to have had Meadows or Wiley instead of Lockett. However, I have no idea who Gray and Logan are, and Lockett at least played. I would give Carl a 4 out of 6. 1996 - We took Reggie Tongue. The next five picks were: 29 (59) STL Ernie Conwell TE Washington 30 (60) JAC Michael Cheever C Georgia Tech 31 (61) PHI Brian Dawkins DB Clemson Round 3 Rd (OV) Team Name Pos College 1 (62) NYJ Ray Mickens DB Texas A&M 2 (63) JAC Aaron Beasley DB West Virginia Obviously, Dawkins was the pick here. Beasley and Conwell had reasonable careers, but I would give Carl a 5 out of 6. 1994 - We took Donnell Bennett. The next five picks were: 30 (59) NYG Jason Sehorn DB USC 31 (60) HOO Jeremy Nunley DE Alabama 32 (61) BUF Lonnie Johnson TE Florida State 33 (62) SFO Tyrone Drakeford DB Virginia Tech 34 (63) SDG Vaughn Parker G UCLA Sehorn, Johnson, and Parker were all productive, and I think Drakeford was, too. Bennett was a starter for a while, though. I would give Carl a 4 out of 6, spotting Sehorn and Johnson. 1993 - No pick 1992 - We took Matt Blundin. The next five picks were: 13 (41) NYG Phillippi Sparks DB Arizona State 14 (42) NYJ Kurt Barber LB USC 15 (43) MIA Eddie Blake DT Auburn 16 (44) TAM Courtney Hawkins WR Michigan State 17 (45) SFO Amp Lee RB Florida State Sparks, Lee, and Hawkins were all productive. I have no idea about Blake and Barber. I'll give Carl a 2 out of 6 and split the difference. Could easily be a 1. 1991 - We took Joe Valerio, the best receiving tackle in league history. The next five picks were: 24 (51) SEA Doug Thomas WR Clemson 25 (52) CIN Lamar Rogers DE Auburn 26 (53) SFO John Johnson LB Clemson 27 (54) BUF Phil Hansen DE North Dakota State 28 (55) NYG Kanavis McGhee LB Colorado Hansen would've been a good pick, as well as McGhee. Don't know about the others. I'll be generous and give Carl a 4 out of 6. 1990 - We took Tim Grunhard. The next five picks were: 16 (41) HOO Jeff Alm DT Notre Dame 17 (42) BUF Carwell Gardner RB Louisville 18 (43) PIT Kenny Davidson DE Louisiana State 19 (44) NOR Vince Buck DB Central State (OH) 20 (45) CLE Leroy Hoard RB Michigan Hoard and Gardner were good, but Carl scores a 6 here. 1989 - We took Mike Elkins. The next five picks were: 5 (33) TAM Danny Peebles WR North Carolina State 6 (34) PIT Carnell Lake DB UCLA 7 (35) CIN Eric Ball RB UCLA 8 (36) CHI John Roper LB Texas A&M 9 (37) SDG Courtney Hall C Rice Wow. Lake and Hall would've ruled. I think Ball had a little playing time, and not sure about Peebles and Roper. I'll be generous and give Carl a 2 out of 6. So our scoring for Carl is: 2004 - 1 2004 - 3 2003 - 5 2002 - 1 2000 - 3 1999 - 4 1997 - 4 1996 - 5 1994 - 4 1992 - 2 1991 - 4 1990 - 6 1989 - 2 Average: 44 points out of a possible 78, or an average of 3.4. This means that of the six top players, Carl consistently can be counted on to select the 3rd or 4th best of the 6. While I can't unilaterally condemn this without comparing it to other GMs, I think I would hope that a GM would consistently get the 2nd or 3rd best. The other interesting issue is his performance in the Marty era vs. the post-Marty era. In the Marty era, his average score was 3.8. In the post-Marty era, his average has been 2.8. __________________ I'm putting random letters here as a celebration of free speech: xigrakgrah misorojeq rkemeseit. Last edited by Rain Man; 01-01-2008 at 10:20 PM..
Posts: 141,783

01-01-2008, 09:08 PM	#38
KCwolf Finisher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portland Oregon Casino cash: $5061116	That is some pretty damn good stats....well done fellow Chiefs fan. Rep.....if I knew what that meant...... __________________
Posts: 1,897

01-01-2008, 09:45 PM	#41
KCFalcon59 MVP Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Topeka, Kansas Casino cash: $510000	It's the chiefs goddamned philosophy to reach after their 1st pick. Heck they have even reached a few times on their 1st pick instead of taking the BAA. They think they are so smart and can find the diamonds in the rough but rarely ever get one.
Posts: 6,764