Ben Steins Movie - EXPELLED

[SLAG]

Looks interesting I thought

[bowener]

Originally Posted by a1na2

My only question regarding the film and those groups standing out against it: Why the fear?

Fear of what? Having your words manipulated and your image falseley represented? Or Why the fear of having ID taught in school?

If it is the latter of the three, because it simply is not science on the most fundamental grounds. Not because their is a god or God involved, but because they cannot show proof for their arguments; which I may be mistaken, but that is one reason you call it 'faith' in the first place.
Also, this would open up a pandoras box (lame cliche statement, but most fitting) of full out bullshit. Any one person would have grounds to argue that they had a right to learn whatever belief they so chose for that day. You also could not grade anything on the basis of it being scientifically proven or repeated through scienctific experiments because ID (as said before) has no proof other than what they already possess, ie) 'Irreduscibly complex objects'; that coincidentally can be explained by means of evolutionary biology. It would also slow our education and hamper our already weak system on the basis that things would always be tied up in debate because student A wants to learn biology through evolution, Student B wants to learn bio through ID, and Student C wants to learn bio from the FSM. You would have one teacher, 30 different theories, no grades, and no learning. We are already one of the most 'dumb' 1st world nations, this would just be the final nail.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Why do you think that critics might lash out at this movie? How many of the critics claim Christianity? How many of them disclaim it?

Just thought I'd mention that you can believe in evolution (or be against creationism) and still be a Christian.

[BigVE]

The fuel that keeps fanning this fire is that there are too many uneducated people who are blindly following a "belief" based on almost NO research or reading of their own. They take someone elses words as gospel and leave it at that. THEN you have the OVER-educated know-it-alls who think that their opinions should NOT be questioned. The funny thing about these statements is that they equally apply whether your talking about darwinism OR creationism. Example: when Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" came out a few years ago I heard of some friends who refused to watch it because they felt it would try to "change their beliefs". If your faith or beliefs are so weak as to be easily influenced by a hollywood movie then you have problems. I for one believe in ID but I do NOT rule out the fact that there may still have been a sort of an evolution of some things over the years too.

[irishjayhawk]

Originally Posted by elvomito

and a bowener at that! lol


interesting. so its not considered the "law" of gravity?

Don't assume that the scientific definition of law means that we know everything there is about it.

Scientifically:

A Theory says that it's observable but not predictable.
A Law says that it's both observable and predictable. Hence, the graduation from theory to law.

An example of how a law may be wrong can be found in the Law of Thermodynamics. On earth, we have witnessed that matter cannot be made on-demand, instantaneously, without another external cause. Hence, we have a law that basically says: something cannot come from nothing. However, we have no idea if this holds true in all corners of the universe. We haven't even traveled to another planet. It could be that in the distant corner of the universe there is something that creates matter out of nothing and there we could discover 80 new elements. No one knows. So while something is "law" it doesn't mean it's 100% fact in the UNIVERSE but rather 100% on Earth. Likewise, scientific Theory doesn't mean that it's a "guess" like the regular use of theory does. Does that make sense?

politics/religion really sucks. i wish they'd both disappear.

We will always have politics. I'm thinking the same is true for religion but I'm hoping not.

one thing i've learned from this thread that irish pointed out, is that evolution doesn't try to explain the origin of life. i don't think it even infers that humans evolved from apes, right? or that life started in one place rather than 20, for example? people just love to have conflict

Evolution doesn't infer that humans evolved DIRECTLY from apes. Instead, we branched off. More like a tree than a anything else. We both belong to the larger group of primate. And there are (more than, but for this purposes) two branches: apes and us. We are related but we aren't the end result of their branch. We are a new branch. And it's this branch stuff that really confuses anti-evolutionists because it's so easy to say it's linear and ask why isn't there a half human-ape or ape-fish.

Originally Posted by a1na2

Why do you think that critics might lash out at this movie? How many of the critics claim Christianity? How many of them disclaim it?

For the most part, this is part of the problem even though, as Jenson points out, you can be an evolutionist and a Christian. But to ignore the fact that Christianity plays a big part in this movie is to ignore the forest with all the trees.

Critics are going to lash out at this movie on many different basis. First, it's intellectually dishonest for most of the reasons I posted for elvomito. Second, the film spreads many lies, which have been canvassed over and over. Third, if anyone understands the background of the film, they'll understand why the film should be canned already. Fourth, this new storm with expelling someone (scientist) from the Expelled screening (irony meter exploded) should have ushered in it's final blow.

I haven't read much about the movie so I don't have any bias for or against it. I saw enough of the cuts from Moron Moores film to know that he manipulated truth to fit his agenda. I did not see his entire film although I had opportunity to do so. I also did not see the rebutal to the film and had plenty of opportunity to see that one as well.

It's worse than Moore's film because it offers ZERO evidence for ID yet says it needs to be taught and "Big Science" is out to get them.

I'll probably not choose to watch this film either.

My only commentary to date has to do with those that have agnostic and or atheistic beliefs seem to be flocking out against this movie just as the evangicals did against MM's film of incorrect or manipulated data.

My only question regarding the film and those groups standing out against it: Why the fear?

The fear isn't really fear as much as it is truth-telling and intellectual honesty. But if I have to speak in terms of fear:

1) Misrepresenting science
2) Linking Evolution to Hitler/genocide (as if genocide wasn't present before Darwin)
3) Spreading lies about ID and the evidence for it.
4) Spreading lies about evolution and the evidence for it.
5) Cultivating an ignorant mass of people. Think of it as intellectual AIDS.
6) Giving Ben Stein any credibility at all.
7) Cultivating a culture of the dark age thinking.
8) Science can't put out an equal movie because it would be boring. It would be factual but no one would want to watch it. And we don't have Ben Stein . So it makes it hard for a rebuttal in the same medium.

There's more but essentially it will set us back. We cannot move forward until people accept it. It cripples everything.

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Just thought I'd mention that you can believe in evolution (or be against creationism) and still be a Christian.

Yep. In fact, I don't see how it's hard for believers to get that. I see no contradictions between Bible and evolution.

Originally Posted by BigVE

The fuel that keeps fanning this fire is that there are too many uneducated people who are blindly following a "belief" based on almost NO research or reading of their own. They take someone elses words as gospel and leave it at that.

That would be part of the "fear" even though it's more of a truth.

THEN you have the OVER-educated know-it-alls who think that their opinions should NOT be questioned. The funny thing about these statements is that they equally apply whether your talking about darwinism OR creationism.

This is true, but I would say that most people on the side of Darwinism can actually back up what they say. Or if they can't, they say so. Like me. I'm not about to tell you that EVERYTHING i've typed is 100% truth. If there's a person on here with more science knowledge and can explain what I've said better or correct me, more power to them.

Example: when Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" came out a few years ago I heard of some friends who refused to watch it because they felt it would try to "change their beliefs". If your faith or beliefs are so weak as to be easily influenced by a hollywood movie then you have problems. I for one believe in ID but I do NOT rule out the fact that there may still have been a sort of an evolution of some things over the years too.

Better example: People of faith in a big riot about The Golden Compass. If atheistic viewpoints infiltrate your views and shatter your preexisting ones, you are so insecure in your beliefs that it's sad, really.


Out of curiosity, Big Rock, what evidence (and you can put it in PM if you don't want to turn this thread into a DC) do you have for ID or that convinced you of it?

[irishjayhawk]

Video with Dawkins and Myers talking about the film and the incident:

[mrpopo]

well run for the hills maw barker...before i call the Feds

[bowener]

Originally Posted by Jenson71
Just thought I'd mention that you can believe in evolution (or be against creationism) and still be a Christian.

Originally Posted by irishjayhawk
Yep. In fact, I don't see how it's hard for believers to get that. I see no contradictions between Bible and evolution.

The pope came out and said it himself; that their is no reason for the church to have any stance on evolution and they do not see it as contradicting anything in the bible since the bible never tells you how God works specifically. Isnt it considered a sin to assume you know how God works anyway (not being a smartass; I genuinely do not know)?

[Duck Dog]

I believe God created evolution.

[BigVE]

Originally Posted by irishjayhawk

Out of curiosity, Big Rock, what evidence (and you can put it in PM if you don't want to turn this thread into a DC) do you have for ID or that convinced you of it?

I'm assuming you were asking ME this question since your quotes were taken from my posts...? Anyways I could be setting myself up but either way here is my answer: There are many reasons I believe in ID. First of all if you have faith in God and the bible it clearly states that God CREATED the heavens and the earth. Period. Next, if you look into ANY animal or plant or human you can see the complexity of how it works. For me, these things are WAY TOO complex to have just happened by chance. It's like taking the finest crafted watch and taking it completely apart and putting all the pieces into a box and then just shaking it up endlessly and hoping/expecting that eventually it will somehow end up being that same fine timepiece once again...all by chance. That's just my 2 cents.

[Ultra Peanut]

Irreducible complexity does not a compelling argument make. Bowener actually touched upon this a little, and there's plenty more on it here.

What you fail to understand about chance is that we're talking about spans of time that are downright inconceivable to humans. It's not at all shocking that somewhere in this unfathomably massive universe, at some point in an unfathomably massive amount of time, life has arisen and evolved. We just happened to be the who and where, or else, you know, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Even if you want to credit God with the initial creation (and hey, that's fine with me, as long as you don't try to pass off belief as science), there is such a preponderance of evidence supporting evolution (including a shitton -- that's a very scientific term, let me assure you -- of transitional fossils) that you have to either believe God (or the devil) planted all of it there -- including in our own DNA -- to fool us, or simply stick your fingers in your ears and cover your eyes to believe that evolution didn't occur.

[BigVE]

Originally Posted by Ultra Peanut

Irreducible complexity does not a compelling argument make. Bowener actually touched upon this a little, and there's plenty more on it here.

What you fail to understand about chance is that we're talking about spans of time that are downright inconceivable to humans. It's not at all shocking that somewhere in this unfathomably massive universe, at some point in an unfathomably massive amount of time, life has arisen and evolved. We just happened to be the who and where, or else, you know, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Even if you want to credit God with the initial creation (and hey, that's fine with me, as long as you don't try to pass off belief as science), there is such a preponderance of evidence supporting evolution (including a shitton -- that's a very scientific term, let me assure you -- of transitional fossils) that you have to either believe God (or the devil) planted all of it there -- including in our own DNA -- to fool us, or simply stick your fingers in your ears and cover your eyes to believe that evolution didn't occur.

You try to make it sound like evolution is so cut and dry and it clearly is not. There have been many so called "missing links" that have been continually debunked...that in itself lessens the credibility of other so called transitional fossils being used as evidence in my books. I was asked a question so I answered it.

[Jenson71]

In addition to Ultra Peanut's link, I should mention the Tiktaalik fossil discovery, which seems to be a link between fish and land animals.

Originally Posted by Duck Dog

I believe God created evolution.

That's not a bad thought, one that many also believe in and one that neither discredits general scientific thought on evolution or Christian beliefs.

Faith and reason can form together to complete a whole truth. Without one, I believe you have an incomplete truth. We Christians believe in the Truth - as in the Father, the Christ, and the Holy Spirit. But we must recognize the truth that comes from our reason, our science, and our intellect.

Bishop DiLorenzo of Richmond, chair of the Committee on Science and Human Values in a December 2004 letter sent to all U.S. bishops: "...Catholic schools should continue teaching evolution as a scientific theory backed by convincing evidence. . . . Students should be able to leave their biology classes, and their courses in religious instruction, with an integrated understanding of the means God chose to make us who we are." (National Catholic Reporter via wikipedia)

I'm not at all saying that the only credible scientists are Christians. I don't believe that at all. I do feel though, that no Christian should see science/truth as something entirely opposing their beliefs, which I think we hear a lot of and assume to be the norm.

[keg in kc]

"Debunked" is a good word. Because that's a denial stemming from a preconceived, preexisting agenda. Which is not a good thing, if we're still in the realm of science. Now, there's nothing wrong with skepticism, asking for valid evidence to support a theory, but refusing to believe something, or actively "debunking" it, simply because it threatens a certain philosophical worldview that an individual holds, can never and will never be "science".

That's not to say that scientists themselves aren't often guilty of this. It's still in many ways a tenured world, a world where many at the highest levels seem less interested in discovery and scrutiny than they are in maintaining their positions. From the outside, it's appears that it's often difficult to get recognition or even discussion of new ideas because they're contrary to current understanding.

While this may sound like a commentary about ID and science's reaction, it certainly is not. ID is not science. It's the exact opposite of science, starting from a conclusion and ignoring the steps that have to be taken to honestly reach it. In the end, it's a blatant deception, a sham of science based on mythology, and not something that can ever be verified through observation. It would be just as valid for me to stand in front of a classroom and state that Atun created the universe out of the waters of Nu.

By all means believe in creation if you want to believe in creation. Just don't let yourself fall into the trap, the lie, that ID is. Be honest and acknowledge that your view is shaped by faith, and it can't possibly be supported by real, hard science. Which is a perfectly fine thing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with faith. The fact is, science can't disprove it, either. That's the whole point of having it in the first place.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Just thought I'd mention that you can believe in evolution (or be against creationism) and still be a Christian.

I've never been an opponent of evolution and creationism being adverse to the final outcome of the planet.

I am not against evolution, I am not against creationism. I find evidence that they probably were worked in the plan of the creator.

I do not think that you can be a Christian and be against Creationism, at least not the Christian belief that I hold.

[BigVE]

Originally Posted by keg in kc

By all means believe in creation if you want to believe in creation. Just don't let yourself fall into the trap, the lie, that ID is. Be honest and acknowledge that your view is shaped by faith, and it can't possibly be supported by real, hard science. Which is a perfectly fine thing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with faith. The fact is, science can't disprove it, either. That's the whole point of having it in the first place.

I believe I DID. When I said:

Originally Posted by BigVE

There are many reasons I believe in ID. First of all if you have faith in God and the bible it clearly states that God CREATED the heavens and the earth. Period. ... That's just my 2 cents.

BUT, to say that my beliefs can't possibly be supported by real, hard science is wrong. You may disagree and that is fine.