Ethics and Honor - A Rain Man Rant - Page 8

**Rain Man** · 05-02-2005, 08:49 PM

Gol'dang it, I'm ticked off.

We've implemented a very challenging and time consuming process to hire people in my firm, in an effort to get the people who are most likely to be successful. We implemented it last year, and it took us three months to find a strong candidate for a relatively quantitative position. It was a college student who was supposed to graduate in May, and we made her the offer in January, with the agreement that she would start part time in January and then go full time in May.

Well, she's been working for us part time for four months, and was supposed to start full time two weeks from today. So what does she do today? She turns in her two-week notice. Her two-week notice!

Now, if the job wasn't a fit, that's fine. But it was. She was doing good work for us, we all liked her, and she seemed to be genuinely interested in the work. She had a great future here. But get this: It turns out that she continued interviewing for jobs after she accepted our job offer, and she actually accepted a second job offer AFTER SHE WAS WORKING AT MY COMPANY. She then strung my firm along for who knows how long, letting us think that she was keeping her commitment to start full time after graduation, while knowing full well that she was going to screw us over on short notice. Now we're having a busy month, and the person that I've been working my schedule around to accommodate a part-time schedule is freaking quitting, RIGHT WHEN SHE HAD COMMITTED TO STEP UP.

It ticks me off for about a thousand reasons. Dang it. What is wrong with people today? If someone treats you well, don't slam their fingers in the car door.

Stupid people. I hate people. From here on out, I'm just hiring cats.

Hammock Parties · 05-03-2005, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

Yes, yes I did. Duplicating your thought pattern was just too disturbing.

Brilliant!

**Rain Man** · 05-03-2005, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

I have a lot of sympathy for everything you have posted on the subject except this one. Unless a person is stupid they are not going to take a high risk gamble and tell an employer they have different employment that will start in four months. If you want an employee that would do that, you want stupid people working for you.

Maybe I'm just stupid, then. I walked away from a job once when it would've been mine if I had just lied about my intentions. I'd been accepted into grad school and just needed to kill six months, and the manager needed a permanent employee. I just couldn't do it, because it would've screwed over the very person who would've been kind enough to hire me.

trndobrd · 05-03-2005, 01:07 AM

Be sure to tell her that "there are no hard feelings" and that you would be "happy to be a reference" in any future endeavors.

When you get the call from her prosepective employers (she will certainly screw over her next employer and be in the market again) give them an earfull.

Logical · 05-03-2005, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

Maybe I'm just stupid, then. I walked away from a job once when it would've been mine if I had just lied about my intentions. I'd been accepted into grad school and just needed to kill six months, and the manager needed a permanent employee. I just couldn't do it, because it would've screwed over the very person who would've been kind enough to hire me.

I am not sure we are talking the same thing. Did you quit the job or not take the job? My example is someone already has the part time job and knows they are taking another but not for four months. IMO they would be stupid to tell their employer they were leaving, the chances of that employer keeping them has to be less than 10%. Not taking a job is indeed the honorable thing to do, but not the advice I would give my son or daughter. I would tell them that employment is at the employers discretion and if they offer you the job your only obligation unless your condition of employment is for a minimum term, is your best effort while you are employed and to give two weeks notice.

Logical · 05-03-2005, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trndobrd

Be sure to tell her that "there are no hard feelings" and that you would be "happy to be a reference" in any future endeavors.

When you get the call from her prosepective employers (she will certainly screw over her next employer and be in the market again) give them an earfull.

That is a lawsuit waiting to happen. This is the reason the only things we will tell another company that is checking references is

1. How long they worked for us and dates.
2. Whether we would rehire them.

Nothing else.

Over-Head · 05-03-2005, 02:23 AM

I go through this shit all the time.

**Rausch** · 05-03-2005, 02:38 AM

So, it's wrong for her to be looking for the most for her services but not the company?...

stumppy · 05-03-2005, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

That is a lawsuit waiting to happen. This is the reason the only things we will tell another company that is checking references is

1. How long they worked for us and dates.
2. Whether we would rehire them.

Nothing else.

All you need to do when someone calls for a reference, and you want to get the point across, is answer the basic questions like you do. Then say something like " Buy the way, I've been going over our company policies and was wondering, what is your company policy on employee theft ? How about excessive tardiness and/or absence ? Does your company insurance provide for any type of psychological counseling ?"

Something like that usually drives the point home.

trndobrd · 05-03-2005, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

That is a lawsuit waiting to happen. This is the reason the only things we will tell another company that is checking references is

1. How long they worked for us and dates.
2. Whether we would rehire them.

Nothing else.

It's really not. The truth is an absolute defense to a defamation suit. A tortious interference cause of action wouldn't get her in the door as RainMan would not be interfereing with an existing contract. If it makes him feel better tell the company calling that he needs a waiver, from her, allowing him to release employment information. Once he gets that in his hot little hand he's got carte blanc for character assasination.

FallingAlice · 05-03-2005, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ENDelt260

You really think she'll care?

I think she'll care if she gets a call from the Career Services Department and/or the Dean of Students. Practically speaking, there's nothing they can do to her. But it would be a very humiliating experience.

Something like that is not out of the question. Career Services is an important part of stakeholder and alumni relations and student recruitment for most schools. They do not like to hear stories like this.

If RainMan also happens to be an alumni and/or donor, then the situation is even worse.

FallingAlice · 05-03-2005, 05:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trndobrd

It's really not. The truth is an absolute defense to a defamation suit. A tortious interference cause of action wouldn't get her in the door as RainMan would not be interfereing with an existing contract. If it makes him feel better tell the company calling that he needs a waiver, from her, allowing him to release employment information. Once he gets that in his hot little hand he's got carte blanc for character assasination.

Here's another option...

When you have the exit interview, if her response is not sufficient to make you feel that there were reasonable extenuating circumstances to justify her behavior, then...

1. Tell her that if she decides to list your company on her resume that all she should expect is verification of employment. But that she would not be wise to use you as a reference and then disabuse her of her illusions about the working world. Obviously her parents have not.

2. Tell her that she cannot be trusted. That you don't want her on site anymore. And then have someone (security) escort her to her desk to get her personal effects and then out the door.

This will leave an indelible impression on her young mind. You will have done a service to her and to any of her future employers.

NewChief · 05-03-2005, 05:35 AM

I'm not going to go back and read the entire thread. I'll just make a comment:

This is a problem throughout the business world, these days. While I think that you, Kevin, and most other small business owners are completely honest and likely run an ethical company that treats its employees right, the problem stems from the employer side of things.

There was a time when employees trusted their employers. They knew that if they demonstrated loyalty to their employer, the employer would likely take care of them. Sure, their production might drop off a little as they head toward retirement age, but they've put in their time, so that's alright.

Unfortunately, that trust is gone and the distrust permeates our entire business world. It seems that America's corporate culture is now defined by an us vs. them mentality where employers try to screw their bosses. There is no loyalty or ethics, because few employees actually feel invested in or protected by the company for which they work. Even companies with profit sharing and stock options (the free market method of ensuring loyalty) such as Wal-Mart have problems with this. My wife, who just quit her job with Wal-Mart, worked in design. Her design team alone has lost 4 team members to competitors since she's been on maternity leave (3 months).

There's some book that just came out about this trend in American business, but I can't remeber the name of it. Regardless, it's definitely a problem of our times. I'm not sure what the answer is. You try to treat your employees right, and you get shit on. If you, as an employee, try to demonstrate loyalty to your company, you're just as likely to get shit on. It's a dog eat dog world.

FallingAlice · 05-03-2005, 05:45 AM

There were some interesting high-profile instances of this sort of thing happening in reverse to undergraduate and graduate-level students in Boston/Cambridge.

Both the Globe and the Wall Street Journal were reporting that big Fortune 500 companies, consulting firms, A&E firms, etc. had gotten in the habit of recruiting on campus and making job offers. The student would accept a postion and then, naturally, stop looking for a job. Then, when time came for the student to assume their new position...

Sorry, but we've had a change in circumstance. Did we say we had a job for you?

The problem for Career Services was...Geez, what do we do now? They wanted to punish these companies and protect their students. At the same time, the politics can be complicated.

This was happening to Harvard and MIT students. Not that I feel that Harvard and MIT students should be especially protected from this sort of thing. A lot of them could use harsh reality kicking them in teeth more frequently.

But, it does give an idea of a world that is emerging with very different rules. Sadly.

I can't wait until we privatize Social Security. Everything will be much, much better.

teedubya · 05-03-2005, 06:38 AM

I think she needs a spanking on that 22 year old ass. But then again, I think that about all women.

Amnorix · 05-03-2005, 07:01 AM

Unfortunately, the employer/employee relationship now has very little or no concept of loyalty underlying it.

View Poll Results: In which situations is either party being unethical or dishonorable?
A. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, employer fires student within 90 days for poor job performance.	0	0%
B. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, student quits within 90 days after finding 'better' job.	0	0%
C. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, employer lays off student within 90 days due to slow business.	3	21.43%
D. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer rescinds offer before start date because a stronger candidate came available by pure happenstance	9	64.29%
E. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer continues to interview candidates for that position, employer rescinds offer before start date because a stronger candidate was located.	11	78.57%
F. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer rescinds offer before start date due to slow business.	4	28.57%
G. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student reneges on offer before start date because another 'better' job offer arrived by pure happenstance.	3	21.43%
H. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student continues to actively interview for other jobs, student reneges on offer before start date because another 'better' job offer was received.	9	64.29%
I. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student reneges on offer after beginning pre-job paid training program because another 'better' job offer arrived by pure happenstance.	7	50.00%
J. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student continues to actively interview for other jobs, student reneges on offer after beginning pre-job paid training program because another 'better' job offer was received.	11	78.57%
None of these represent unethical or dishonorable behavior.	1	7.14%
It depends on which one is me.	1	7.14%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

05-02-2005, 08:49 PM
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $2768491 VARSITY	Ethics and Honor - A Rain Man Rant Gol'dang it, I'm ticked off. We've implemented a very challenging and time consuming process to hire people in my firm, in an effort to get the people who are most likely to be successful. We implemented it last year, and it took us three months to find a strong candidate for a relatively quantitative position. It was a college student who was supposed to graduate in May, and we made her the offer in January, with the agreement that she would start part time in January and then go full time in May. Well, she's been working for us part time for four months, and was supposed to start full time two weeks from today. So what does she do today? She turns in her two-week notice. Her two-week notice! Now, if the job wasn't a fit, that's fine. But it was. She was doing good work for us, we all liked her, and she seemed to be genuinely interested in the work. She had a great future here. But get this: It turns out that she continued interviewing for jobs after she accepted our job offer, and she actually accepted a second job offer AFTER SHE WAS WORKING AT MY COMPANY. She then strung my firm along for who knows how long, letting us think that she was keeping her commitment to start full time after graduation, while knowing full well that she was going to screw us over on short notice. Now we're having a busy month, and the person that I've been working my schedule around to accommodate a part-time schedule is freaking quitting, RIGHT WHEN SHE HAD COMMITTED TO STEP UP. It ticks me off for about a thousand reasons. Dang it. What is wrong with people today? If someone treats you well, don't slam their fingers in the car door. Stupid people. I hate people. From here on out, I'm just hiring cats.
Posts: 141,871

05-03-2005, 01:07 AM	#108
trndobrd 'Stachecicle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Tolerance Box Casino cash: $4545087	Be sure to tell her that "there are no hard feelings" and that you would be "happy to be a reference" in any future endeavors. When you get the call from her prosepective employers (she will certainly screw over her next employer and be in the market again) give them an earfull. __________________ "I don't really think there is a need to raise or debate this point." -jAZ
Posts: 7,089

05-03-2005, 02:23 AM	#111
Over-Head Boom, Boom , Crash Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In my shed Casino cash: $9995760	I go through this shit all the time. __________________ ...Illegitimus non Carborundum est...
Posts: 12,040

05-03-2005, 05:35 AM	#117
NewChief In Search of a Life Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Fayetteville, AR Casino cash: $9560204	I'm not going to go back and read the entire thread. I'll just make a comment: This is a problem throughout the business world, these days. While I think that you, Kevin, and most other small business owners are completely honest and likely run an ethical company that treats its employees right, the problem stems from the employer side of things. There was a time when employees trusted their employers. They knew that if they demonstrated loyalty to their employer, the employer would likely take care of them. Sure, their production might drop off a little as they head toward retirement age, but they've put in their time, so that's alright. Unfortunately, that trust is gone and the distrust permeates our entire business world. It seems that America's corporate culture is now defined by an us vs. them mentality where employers try to screw their bosses. There is no loyalty or ethics, because few employees actually feel invested in or protected by the company for which they work. Even companies with profit sharing and stock options (the free market method of ensuring loyalty) such as Wal-Mart have problems with this. My wife, who just quit her job with Wal-Mart, worked in design. Her design team alone has lost 4 team members to competitors since she's been on maternity leave (3 months). There's some book that just came out about this trend in American business, but I can't remeber the name of it. Regardless, it's definitely a problem of our times. I'm not sure what the answer is. You try to treat your employees right, and you get shit on. If you, as an employee, try to demonstrate loyalty to your company, you're just as likely to get shit on. It's a dog eat dog world. __________________ In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican. - H. L. Mencken
Posts: 21,762

05-03-2005, 05:45 AM	#118
FallingAlice Starter Join Date: Sep 2002 Casino cash: $10004900	There were some interesting high-profile instances of this sort of thing happening in reverse to undergraduate and graduate-level students in Boston/Cambridge. Both the Globe and the Wall Street Journal were reporting that big Fortune 500 companies, consulting firms, A&E firms, etc. had gotten in the habit of recruiting on campus and making job offers. The student would accept a postion and then, naturally, stop looking for a job. Then, when time came for the student to assume their new position... Sorry, but we've had a change in circumstance. Did we say we had a job for you? The problem for Career Services was...Geez, what do we do now? They wanted to punish these companies and protect their students. At the same time, the politics can be complicated. This was happening to Harvard and MIT students. Not that I feel that Harvard and MIT students should be especially protected from this sort of thing. A lot of them could use harsh reality kicking them in teeth more frequently. But, it does give an idea of a world that is emerging with very different rules. Sadly. I can't wait until we privatize Social Security. Everything will be much, much better. __________________ What would Brian Boitano do?
Posts: 254

05-03-2005, 06:38 AM	#119
teedubya Most Valuable Poster Join Date: Oct 2003 Casino cash: $9460002	I think she needs a spanking on that 22 year old ass. But then again, I think that about all women.
Posts: 36,664

05-03-2005, 07:01 AM	#120
Amnorix In BB I trust Join Date: May 2003 Location: Boston, Mass. Casino cash: $10029808	Unfortunately, the employer/employee relationship now has very little or no concept of loyalty underlying it.
Posts: 43,125