Ethics and Honor - A Rain Man Rant - Page 9

**Rain Man** · 05-02-2005, 08:49 PM

Gol'dang it, I'm ticked off.

We've implemented a very challenging and time consuming process to hire people in my firm, in an effort to get the people who are most likely to be successful. We implemented it last year, and it took us three months to find a strong candidate for a relatively quantitative position. It was a college student who was supposed to graduate in May, and we made her the offer in January, with the agreement that she would start part time in January and then go full time in May.

Well, she's been working for us part time for four months, and was supposed to start full time two weeks from today. So what does she do today? She turns in her two-week notice. Her two-week notice!

Now, if the job wasn't a fit, that's fine. But it was. She was doing good work for us, we all liked her, and she seemed to be genuinely interested in the work. She had a great future here. But get this: It turns out that she continued interviewing for jobs after she accepted our job offer, and she actually accepted a second job offer AFTER SHE WAS WORKING AT MY COMPANY. She then strung my firm along for who knows how long, letting us think that she was keeping her commitment to start full time after graduation, while knowing full well that she was going to screw us over on short notice. Now we're having a busy month, and the person that I've been working my schedule around to accommodate a part-time schedule is freaking quitting, RIGHT WHEN SHE HAD COMMITTED TO STEP UP.

It ticks me off for about a thousand reasons. Dang it. What is wrong with people today? If someone treats you well, don't slam their fingers in the car door.

Stupid people. I hate people. From here on out, I'm just hiring cats.

patteeu · 05-03-2005, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trndobrd

Be sure to tell her that "there are no hard feelings" and that you would be "happy to be a reference" in any future endeavors.

When you get the call from her prosepective employers (she will certainly screw over her next employer and be in the market again) give them an earfull.

Wouldn't that be dishonest?

**Baby Lee** · 05-03-2005, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheeeefs

now that I've flexed all my employable might, I'm going to break it to you softly that I'm an English Major.

BUT

with a little imagination we could make it work. Have you ever thought of the possibilities present in the statistical analyses of subject verb agreement? How often do they agree? I mean really, enquiring minds want to know.

BWAH!!!

**Saulbadguy** · 05-03-2005, 07:44 AM

Hire a corporate assassin.

ROYC75 · 05-03-2005, 07:50 AM

I'm not going to read all of this, just a comment of .........

Welcome to the world of business buddy ! In general, the quality employee has deterioated over the years making it hard to find good employees.

Something else to consider ...It's could just be me , but I think the loyalty to the employer stopped just after the loyalty to the employee stopped .

Many compaines stopped benefits thus creating people to continue searching for a better/ more secure / financial line of work.

**Saulbadguy** · 05-03-2005, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROYC75

In general, the quality employee has deterioated over the years making it hard to find good employees.

Got any proof of this..or is this just another one of those "in the good ole days" rant?

**Baby Lee** · 05-03-2005, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elvis

Hire Dwight

Don't do it, he rears notoriously thirsty babies.

patteeu · 05-03-2005, 08:00 AM

I have sympathy for you Rain Man, but I tend to agree with Vlad on this general subject. I won't dispute your position on this specific case because you have a much better grasp on the particulars than I can and you may well be completely justified to feel betrayed and to conclude that her behavior was unethical and dishonorable.

But in general, I think it's wise for an employee to continually be hunting for a job. You are in a lot more powerful bargaining position when you hunt for a job without being desperate to take a job. You have the luxury of being able to wait for the perfect opportunity instead of feeling like you have to take whatever comes up. You also get practice interviewing and get a feel for what you are worth and what types of opportunities are out there. Even if you like the job you are in, it gives you the chance to find your dream job while at the same time giving you insight into whether or not you are being paid what the market will bear. If you find a job that you like equally well that pays more, you are in a strong position to ask for a raise from your current employer.

The way I look at it, if the current employer wants to keep an employee who has found a better opportunity, that employer is free to sweeten the current deal. For employers who need more loyalty for specialized skills, the employment contract with a noncompete clause is available. But even then, it's possible to lose someone who wants to take their career in a different direction (e.g. moving from market research into engineering).

Two weeks notice is rough for a small business owner, but that's the standard and like Vlad said, an employee assumes additional risk if they give additional notice. The truth is, they don't need to give any notice at all (although I think that would be wrong).

I was hesitant to post this "tough love" message because I like you and because I really do have sympathy for the position you've been put in, but I decided to do it because I'm wondering if some of the agreement you are getting in this thread comes from that same "Rain Man is a cool guy so I'm going to say Amen" effect. Anyway, good luck finding a replacement. Have you tried to offer the girl more money or some kind of promotion to stay? You could tie it to some kind of contract where you give her a bonus that she has to repay if she leaves within a year or something like that? If it's just a matter of wanting to maximize her starting salary, then she can be bought. If it's a matter of not liking the type of work she's been doing or of really wanting to do the kind of work the other job offers, then it's better that she leave now rather than after you invest even more in her development.

patteeu · 05-03-2005, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saulbadguy

Got any proof of this..or is this just another one of those "in the good ole days" rant?

Whether you like the new paradigm or the old, you have to admit that the career path of the typical member of the workforce has changed signficantly over the past few decades. In the old days a person could expect to work for a single employer for the majority of their career and retire with a pension. Now, you can expect to not only change employers several times during your worklife, but you should also expect to change careers a few times.

**Rain Man** · 05-03-2005, 08:22 AM

Hey, I've got no problem with you or anyone else disagreeing with me, patteeu. I agree too that an employee in today's world would be well-served to always be on the lookout for a better opportunity, and I have no ill feelings if someone leaves for a better opportunity. In the situation of a college student going through their career services office looking for a first job, however, I think they shouldn't take accepting a job offer lightly. It was this person's first professional commitment, and she didn't honor it. That's a bad first career move.

I'm not going to cause any trouble for this girl, because I don't think she knows what a breach of professionalism this was. She's just green. But there's no way I'm going to offer her a raise or anything to stay. I'd prefer to give that money to the people who are loyal to my company.

The other thing that I find interesting about this thread is that virtually everyone who owns a company agrees with my position, and most of the folks who haven't owned a company appears to think that the employee didn't have an obligation to keep her commitment.

jspchief · 05-03-2005, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FallingAlice

Here's another option...

When you have the exit interview, if her response is not sufficient to make you feel that there were reasonable extenuating circumstances to justify her behavior, then...

1. Tell her that if she decides to list your company on her resume that all she should expect is verification of employment. But that she would not be wise to use you as a reference and then disabuse her of her illusions about the working world. Obviously her parents have not.

2. Tell her that she cannot be trusted. That you don't want her on site anymore. And then have someone (security) escort her to her desk to get her personal effects and then out the door.

This will leave an indelible impression on her young mind. You will have done a service to her and to any of her future employers.

This is a pretty solid idea. I'd show up at her office right after lunch, put a box on her desk and tell her to start packing. Stand there and watch her through the entire process (or use security if you have it). That way she doesn't get the next two weeks to stock up her home office with your supplies, and you're not wasting money on the salary of someone that's probably giving less than 100% effort anyway.

I've never understood why an employer would let an employee stay for the two weeks anyway. Why let her do it on her terms? Let her go a few weeks without a paycheck.

jspchief · 05-03-2005, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

The other thing that I find interesting about this thread is that virtually everyone who owns a company agrees with my position, and most of the folks who haven't owned a company appears to think that the employee didn't have an obligation to keep her commitment.

That's because as employers, we know what it's like to lose quality employees. We also know that a large majority of businesses aren't the cut-throats that employees make them out to be. We try and treat our people right, and compensate well. In today's business world, most quality employees are highly valued by employers, it's too hard to find replacements.

**Rain Man** · 05-03-2005, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jspchief

This is a pretty solid idea. I'd show up at her office right after lunch, put a box on her desk and tell her to start packing. Stand there and watch her through the entire process (or use security if you have it). That way she doesn't get the next two weeks to stock up her home office with your supplies, and you're not wasting money on the salary of someone that's probably giving less than 100% effort anyway.

I've never understood why an employer would let an employee stay for the two weeks anyway. Why let her do it on her terms? Let her go a few weeks without a paycheck.

I admit that it's tempting, but in my industry I've learned a lesson. Our work is very project-based and word of mouth. I can dump her out the door, but in the long run it's in my best interest to be excruciatingly professional, because maybe some day she'll be in a position to be a client, or at least she'll speak well of us to someone else who may be a client. I'm going to have an honest exit interview with her and let her know how I feel about the situation, but in the long run we're both better off if I remain above the fray.

**Rain Man** · 05-03-2005, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jspchief

That's because as employers, we know what it's like to lose quality employees. We also know that a large majority of businesses aren't the cut-throats that employees make them out to be. We try and treat our people right, and compensate well. In today's business world, most quality employees are highly valued by employers, it's too hard to find replacements.

Yup. Yep. Rep.

Pennywise · 05-03-2005, 08:53 AM

Just throw a hot cup of coffee in her face and be done with it.

patteeu · 05-03-2005, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jspchief

I've never understood why an employer would let an employee stay for the two weeks anyway. Why let her do it on her terms? Let her go a few weeks without a paycheck.

That's the kind of sentiment that tends to justify her decision to only offer 2 weeks notice in the first place.

View Poll Results: In which situations is either party being unethical or dishonorable?
A. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, employer fires student within 90 days for poor job performance.	0	0%
B. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, student quits within 90 days after finding 'better' job.	0	0%
C. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, employer lays off student within 90 days due to slow business.	3	21.43%
D. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer rescinds offer before start date because a stronger candidate came available by pure happenstance	9	64.29%
E. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer continues to interview candidates for that position, employer rescinds offer before start date because a stronger candidate was located.	11	78.57%
F. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer rescinds offer before start date due to slow business.	4	28.57%
G. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student reneges on offer before start date because another 'better' job offer arrived by pure happenstance.	3	21.43%
H. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student continues to actively interview for other jobs, student reneges on offer before start date because another 'better' job offer was received.	9	64.29%
I. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student reneges on offer after beginning pre-job paid training program because another 'better' job offer arrived by pure happenstance.	7	50.00%
J. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student continues to actively interview for other jobs, student reneges on offer after beginning pre-job paid training program because another 'better' job offer was received.	11	78.57%
None of these represent unethical or dishonorable behavior.	1	7.14%
It depends on which one is me.	1	7.14%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

05-02-2005, 08:49 PM
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $2768491 VARSITY	Ethics and Honor - A Rain Man Rant Gol'dang it, I'm ticked off. We've implemented a very challenging and time consuming process to hire people in my firm, in an effort to get the people who are most likely to be successful. We implemented it last year, and it took us three months to find a strong candidate for a relatively quantitative position. It was a college student who was supposed to graduate in May, and we made her the offer in January, with the agreement that she would start part time in January and then go full time in May. Well, she's been working for us part time for four months, and was supposed to start full time two weeks from today. So what does she do today? She turns in her two-week notice. Her two-week notice! Now, if the job wasn't a fit, that's fine. But it was. She was doing good work for us, we all liked her, and she seemed to be genuinely interested in the work. She had a great future here. But get this: It turns out that she continued interviewing for jobs after she accepted our job offer, and she actually accepted a second job offer AFTER SHE WAS WORKING AT MY COMPANY. She then strung my firm along for who knows how long, letting us think that she was keeping her commitment to start full time after graduation, while knowing full well that she was going to screw us over on short notice. Now we're having a busy month, and the person that I've been working my schedule around to accommodate a part-time schedule is freaking quitting, RIGHT WHEN SHE HAD COMMITTED TO STEP UP. It ticks me off for about a thousand reasons. Dang it. What is wrong with people today? If someone treats you well, don't slam their fingers in the car door. Stupid people. I hate people. From here on out, I'm just hiring cats.
Posts: 141,871

05-03-2005, 07:44 AM	#123
Saulbadguy When a nightmare becomes real Join Date: Nov 2003 Casino cash: $2106966	Hire a corporate assassin. __________________ http://www.goemaw.com
Posts: 46,974

05-03-2005, 07:50 AM	#124
ROYC75 Time For Your Wake Up Call !!! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Barn Yard Casino cash: $5149400	I'm not going to read all of this, just a comment of ......... Welcome to the world of business buddy ! In general, the quality employee has deterioated over the years making it hard to find good employees. Something else to consider ...It's could just be me , but I think the loyalty to the employer stopped just after the loyalty to the employee stopped . Many compaines stopped benefits thus creating people to continue searching for a better/ more secure / financial line of work. __________________ Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it. John Lennon
Posts: 37,035

05-03-2005, 08:00 AM	#127
patteeu The 23rd Pillar Join Date: Sep 2002 Casino cash: $10019237	I have sympathy for you Rain Man, but I tend to agree with Vlad on this general subject. I won't dispute your position on this specific case because you have a much better grasp on the particulars than I can and you may well be completely justified to feel betrayed and to conclude that her behavior was unethical and dishonorable. But in general, I think it's wise for an employee to continually be hunting for a job. You are in a lot more powerful bargaining position when you hunt for a job without being desperate to take a job. You have the luxury of being able to wait for the perfect opportunity instead of feeling like you have to take whatever comes up. You also get practice interviewing and get a feel for what you are worth and what types of opportunities are out there. Even if you like the job you are in, it gives you the chance to find your dream job while at the same time giving you insight into whether or not you are being paid what the market will bear. If you find a job that you like equally well that pays more, you are in a strong position to ask for a raise from your current employer. The way I look at it, if the current employer wants to keep an employee who has found a better opportunity, that employer is free to sweeten the current deal. For employers who need more loyalty for specialized skills, the employment contract with a noncompete clause is available. But even then, it's possible to lose someone who wants to take their career in a different direction (e.g. moving from market research into engineering). Two weeks notice is rough for a small business owner, but that's the standard and like Vlad said, an employee assumes additional risk if they give additional notice. The truth is, they don't need to give any notice at all (although I think that would be wrong). I was hesitant to post this "tough love" message because I like you and because I really do have sympathy for the position you've been put in, but I decided to do it because I'm wondering if some of the agreement you are getting in this thread comes from that same "Rain Man is a cool guy so I'm going to say Amen" effect. Anyway, good luck finding a replacement. Have you tried to offer the girl more money or some kind of promotion to stay? You could tie it to some kind of contract where you give her a bonus that she has to repay if she leaves within a year or something like that? If it's just a matter of wanting to maximize her starting salary, then she can be bought. If it's a matter of not liking the type of work she's been doing or of really wanting to do the kind of work the other job offers, then it's better that she leave now rather than after you invest even more in her development. __________________ “Boy, you all want power. God, I hope you never get it.” - Lindsay Graham
Posts: 110,871

05-03-2005, 08:22 AM	#129
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $2768491 VARSITY	Hey, I've got no problem with you or anyone else disagreeing with me, patteeu. I agree too that an employee in today's world would be well-served to always be on the lookout for a better opportunity, and I have no ill feelings if someone leaves for a better opportunity. In the situation of a college student going through their career services office looking for a first job, however, I think they shouldn't take accepting a job offer lightly. It was this person's first professional commitment, and she didn't honor it. That's a bad first career move. I'm not going to cause any trouble for this girl, because I don't think she knows what a breach of professionalism this was. She's just green. But there's no way I'm going to offer her a raise or anything to stay. I'd prefer to give that money to the people who are loyal to my company. The other thing that I find interesting about this thread is that virtually everyone who owns a company agrees with my position, and most of the folks who haven't owned a company appears to think that the employee didn't have an obligation to keep her commitment. __________________ I'm putting random letters here as a celebration of free speech: xigrakgrah misorojeq rkemeseit.
Posts: 141,871

05-03-2005, 08:53 AM	#134
Pennywise pew pew madafakas Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Derry, Maine Casino cash: $1464400	Just throw a hot cup of coffee in her face and be done with it.
Posts: 7,919