These "parents" should face criminal charges

[DaneMcCloud]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

You have totally missed the point of the whole thread. You came in with hatred in your heart because a family does not believe the same as you do. You have been very vehement regarding your stance.

I will admit to being very consistent, fair, and assertive in my view, yes. Hatred, no, but I do feel these parents are completely damn fools. My reasoning for that is because they neglected the well being of their child by not seeking medical care.

You sound like someone that is claiming they killed the child intentionally. Once again, they did not. They followed their faith. What makes your faith any different than theirs? Oh, yes ... your faith believes in doctors and theirs does not. Get past the semantics and understand that different religions have different doctrines. Even the Catholic Church has doctrines that are not fully in line with the Bible. Are you aware of why that is? Because man, a fallible being created those doctrines. Not just in the Catholic Church but in every mainstream denomination going down the Pike. Not to mention all of the other non-mainstream religions that the family in question may have been a member of.

For one, I believe that my faith does not conflict with common sense. The kind that says "When your child is sick, give them medical care." Different religions do have different doctrines. I am fully aware of this. When part of the doctrine is that it is better to sit and not give your child the medical care they need, I will stand up and say that's wrong. Yes, the Catholic Church has a different interpretation of the Bible than many Protestants.

What you are doing is participating in a sin that is paramount to any other. Judge not lest ye be judged. Don't feel lonely, everyone has been guilty of that. Should all be stoned and/or put to death?

I can judge people, and I am open to other people judging me. We judge people all the time and it is good for us to do so. We decide what is right and wrong, just and unjust, good and bad, moral and immoral through judging. Being a judge involves critical thinking and it's normal human activity. I might even someday like to be a professional judge when I am older. We should all use common sense in our judgments. These fools did not. They need to be punished.

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

You are right, I am a practicing Catholic. So far, I have never been called to kill anyone. Killing people is against Catholicism, although most every Catholic would find killing for self-defense acceptable. St. Augustine was one of the main proponents of the Just War Theory.
But anyway, that is neither here nor there. I agree about not being hypocritical. In this case, I do not think I have been.

Are you suggesting that the Catholic church doesn't support war or troops? Seriously?
Well for what its worth, I do know first hand that they do and by doing so they are thus condoning the killing of their fellow man...even a fellow Catholic.
So maybe your being honest hearted but it does make the Catholic church hypocritical.....anyway that is neither here nor there.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

For one, I believe that my faith does not conflict with common sense. The kind that says "When your child is sick, give them medical care." Different religions do have different doctrines. I am fully aware of this. When part of the doctrine is that it is better to sit and not give your child the medical care they need, I will stand up and say that's wrong. Yes, the Catholic Church has a different interpretation of the Bible than many Protestants.

I can judge people, and I am open to other people judging me. We judge people all the time and it is good for us to do so. We decide what is right and wrong, just and unjust, good and bad, moral and immoral through judging. Being a judge involves critical thinking and it's normal human activity. I might even someday like to be a professional judge when I am older. We should all use common sense in our judgments. These fools did not. They need to be punished.

You are talking about your beliefs. You are totally disregarding the beliefs of others, doctrines and all. You believe in doctors so you are prone to sending a kid to a doctor.

You claim that you can judge people and then are open to judgment by others. Well fillet me with a butte knife. It is not for you to judge others according to what I've read in the Catholic Bible (and most of the other translations as well.

You are make judgments without considering all the facts. If you were to become a judge you would fail with that attitude.

Your faith says that it is a sin to kill but Catholics kill. Your faith says that it is a sin to judge but you judge. It makes me think that your faith can be compromised based on your emotions, and that is exactly where you are right now.

Again, let me reiterate. If you do not believe in something there is no conscience wrong if you do not use that something. There are some religious sects that do not believe (again) in electricity. If they are working in the dark and an electric light is available and the do not use it and someone dies are they criminally liable? NO they are not. And in the case of the girl dying, they did not and, as far as you know the girl was old enough to be accountable for her actions, did not believe in doctors either.

It was bad that she died, but those parents lost more than freedom when their child died, and I fear that it something that you do not have the capacity to understand or even be compassionate about.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Are you suggesting that the Catholic church doesn't support war or troops? Seriously?
Well for what its worth, I do know first hand that they do and by doing so they are thus condoning the killing of their fellow man...even a fellow Catholic.
So maybe your being honest hearted but it does make the Catholic church hypocritical.....anyway that is neither here nor there.

I don't mind addressing these concerns in this particular thread, or any thread. I was joking when I told Adept to stay on topic.

I really can't point to any official document where the Vatican came out in full support of a war or troops. But, I know the general belief is that there are times when it is okay to kill - this is where the Just War Theory comes in; St. Augustine supported it basically when Rome was having those problems with the Germanic tribes and things weren't going so well for the empire. It's generally accepted. But the Catholic Church knows it can't take any real political lines and declare sides in a war. Of course, war is always going to be seen as a bad thing. But I really don't have the depth of knowledge to know if they said "World War II is a just war." I just don't know what their approach to that is. I know statements asking for peace are popular.

Now, in history, the Church has had some rough times. Some missteps, or giant pitfalls. The Church is a human institution, and many Church leaders, popes, priests, bishops have made wrong, bad, evil decisions. There's no denying that, and in that sense, there has been many examples of hypocrisy by Church leaders. But still, you are not supposed to kill people, outside of what would be considered a just reason for that act. That was always the case. It just, unfortunately, was not always followed.

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by a1na2

You are talking about your beliefs. You are totally disregarding the beliefs of others, doctrines and all. You believe in doctors so you are prone to sending a kid to a doctor.

You claim that you can judge people and then are open to judgment by others. Well fillet me with a butte knife. It is not for you to judge others according to what I've read in the Catholic Bible (and most of the other translations as well.

You are make judgments without considering all the facts. If you were to become a judge you would fail with that attitude.

Your faith says that it is a sin to kill but Catholics kill. Your faith says that it is a sin to judge but you judge. It makes me think that your faith can be compromised based on your emotions, and that is exactly where you are right now.

Again, let me reiterate. If you do not believe in something there is no conscience wrong if you do not use that something. There are some religious sects that do not believe (again) in electricity. If they are working in the dark and an electric light is available and the do not use it and someone dies are they criminally liable? NO they are not. And in the case of the girl dying, they did not and, as far as you know the girl was old enough to be accountable for her actions, did not believe in doctors either.

It was bad that she died, but those parents lost more than freedom when their child died, and I fear that it something that you do not have the capacity to understand or even be compassionate about.

In Jensen's defense, as a Christian you are to "judge" or basically use good discernment on who you choose to associate with. (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) On the other hand your right in that the heart or one thinking emotionally can be very dangerous because it can alter rational thinking. (Jeremiah 17:9) That is where you can fall into criticizing something or someone just because you don't understand. Again the folks involved are totally misguided about biblical truth but like yourself, I was trying to point out to Jensen that one needs to be careful when your quick to judge whats on the surface of others before taking a deep look at yourself first.

[alnorth]

The basic fundamental disagreement here, is whether or not children are private property that you have unquestioned ownership over until the age of majority.

Children are *NOT* your property to do with as you please without restriction. They are by default entrusted to the parents to provide care and upbringing with a lot of leeway to methods, but some very basic standards are absolutely required and inviolate for ANY reasons whatsoever. One of those standards is basic medical care when it is obvious to a reasonable person that its necessary. Failure to do that is child abuse and/or neglect, plain and simple. Whether intentional or unintentional, its still neglect.

You have the right to not go to a doctor for your own ailments, but you do *NOT* have the right to deny medical care to your children when it is needed. This is not a freedom of religion issue, because the kids are not old enough to consent to that self-destructive insanity.

You also do not have to intentionally hurt someone to be guilty of a crime. These parents are guilty of a very serious offense, and they should be punished for it. Their remaining kids also need to be moved to the care of someone who has the sense to care for them properly.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

You are talking about your beliefs. You are totally disregarding the beliefs of others, doctrines and all. You believe in doctors so you are prone to sending a kid to a doctor.

It's not so much about believing in doctors. It's just the common sense to use them! Your child is sick. You have a moral obligation to get that child better. They have the means to do it - take her to a doctor. They chose not to, and they were wrong.

You claim that you can judge people and then are open to judgment by others. Well fillet me with a butte knife. It is not for you to judge others according to what I've read in the Catholic Bible (and most of the other translations as well.

Well, I just don't know the context of this in the Bible well enough for me to explain to you convincingly that I can judge, and you are free to judge me. Judging is a good thing, though, when it's fair. I think I'm pretty fair though. Are you judging that I'm not being fair? I think so, and I think you can!

You are make judgments without considering all the facts. If you were to become a judge you would fail with that attitude.

Well, this is true, too. The investigation is not over, they could find something totally different maybe. I don't know. Either way, we're both basing our opinions off the same article. Hopefully the actual case is longer.

Again, let me reiterate. If you do not believe in something there is no conscience wrong if you do not use that something. There are some religious sects that do not believe (again) in electricity. If they are working in the dark and an electric light is available and the do not use it and someone dies are they criminally liable? NO they are not.

I don't quite follow this example. I don't see the logic in this case and the case of parents letting their child die.

And in the case of the girl dying, they did not and, as far as you know the girl was old enough to be accountable for her actions, did not believe in doctors either.

There's just no real indication of this being the child's choice. Either way, the parents have an obligation to overrule that in the interest of their child's health. If my boy said I want to die, I would say "shut up, get in the car, we're going to the hospital" because that's what a good parent does. They take care of their child. Eleven years old is too young to make any kind of choice like that, and I doubt she was given the choice.

It was bad that she died, but those parents lost more than freedom when their child died, and I fear that it something that you do not have the capacity to understand or even be compassionate about.

Is this a judgment of yours? No, I'm quite understanding and compassionate.

[alnorth]

Quick update after some research.

Wisconsin is one of the few reeruned states remaining that still grants an exemption to prosecution for parents who opt for "treatment through prayer". This outrage may prod the state legislature to remove that statute just like they did in Colorado, but these irresponsible parents are probably going to walk.

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

I don't mind addressing these concerns in this particular thread, or any thread. I was joking when I told Adept to stay on topic.

I really can't point to any official document where the Vatican came out in full support of a war or troops. But, I know the general belief is that there are times when it is okay to kill - this is where the Just War Theory comes in; St. Augustine supported it basically when Rome was having those problems with the Germanic tribes and things weren't going so well for the empire. It's generally accepted. But the Catholic Church knows it can't take any real political lines and declare sides in a war. Of course, war is always going to be seen as a bad thing. But I really don't have the depth of knowledge to know if they said "World War II is a just war." I just don't know what their approach to that is. I know statements asking for peace are popular.

Now, in history, the Church has had some rough times. Some missteps, or giant pitfalls. The Church is a human institution, and many Church leaders, popes, priests, bishops have made wrong, bad, evil decisions. There's no denying that, and in that sense, there has been many examples of hypocrisy by Church leaders. But still, you are not supposed to kill people, outside of what would be considered a just reason for that act. That was always the case. It just, unfortunately, was not always followed.

Heres a link to Catholic Church in St Paul thats having a support the troops breakfast on April 13th. http://www.stpaulsprinceton.org/
Sure looks like the church is still struggling with the "Thou Shalt not kill" thingy and your still in denial. Its not always followed because the church leaders have not and do not follow Jesus example when it come to "loving thy neighbor", therefore its only natural that their followers are confused when it comes to religious and political wars. I wish I could go kill and rob a bunch of people and then have you as my judge....but hey thats neither here nor there.

[alnorth]

Another quick update, the local prosecutor is considering whether or not there is enough to go for second-degree reckless homicide (max 25 years) since they cant go for child abuse or neglect, but that will not work if the parents can demonstrate that they honestly had a "good-faith belief" that the kid was not about to die. (If they did think she was dying but chose prayer, then that's apparently enough to convict)

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by alnorth

The basic fundamental disagreement here, is whether or not children are private property that you have unquestioned ownership over until the age of majority.

Children are *NOT* your property to do with as you please without restriction. They are by default entrusted to the parents to provide care and upbringing with a lot of leeway to methods, but some very basic standards are absolutely required and inviolate for ANY reasons whatsoever. One of those standards is basic medical care when it is obvious to a reasonable person that its necessary. Failure to do that is child abuse and/or neglect, plain and simple. Whether intentional or unintentional, its still neglect.

You have the right to not go to a doctor for your own ailments, but you do *NOT* have the right to deny medical care to your children when it is needed. This is not a freedom of religion issue, because the kids are not old enough to consent to that self-destructive insanity.

You also do not have to intentionally hurt someone to be guilty of a crime. These parents are guilty of a very serious offense, and they should be punished for it. Their remaining kids also need to be moved to the care of someone who has the sense to care for them properly.

I mostly agree, but you and I should have the right to choose what type of medical treatment our children would get or what we deem would be the best care for them. Otherwise you could be allowing a doctor's opinion to become law, while having no liability or consequences if he or she is mistaken.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

Heres a link to Catholic Church in St Paul thats having a support the troops breakfast on April 13th. http://www.stpaulsprinceton.org/
Sure looks like the church is still struggling with the "Thou Shalt not kill" thingy and your still in denial. Its not always followed because the church leaders have not and do not follow Jesus example when it come to "loving thy neighbor", therefore its only natural that their followers are confused when it comes to religious and political wars. I wish I could go kill and rob a bunch of people and then have you as my judge....but hey thats neither here nor there.

Well, in the link, that's just a show of patriotism and support for the troops that parishoners would have. You'll see those everywhere. It's not like the Vatican is deciding that they support American troops in the War on Terror. They just wouldn't make that statement. It's more complicated than how I could explain it.

The Just War Theory gets around that commandment and also how Jesus said turn the other cheek. Some people are complete pacifists, and I can admire and respect that - they have great reasons for it. I personally believe that we can protect ourselves and our loved ones. Many people do.

[alnorth]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

I mostly agree, but you and I should have the right to choose what type of medical treatment our children would get or what we deem would be the best care for them. Otherwise you could be allowing a doctor's opinion to become law, while having no liability or consequences if he or she is mistaken.

I'll fall back on what I said earlier about giving the medical care that a reasonable person would give. Before we get into slippery-slope arguments, yes society and the courts can define what that ("reasonable care") exactly means, and I'd say that asking for 2nd and 3rd opinions, and discussing all medically valid options with these doctors are entirely reasonable. (Presuming we dont have some kind of "cant wait" emergency, of the "bleeding from a gaping hole" variety or something similarly urgent. I'm assuming that a thorough discussion of all medically valid options is possible)

[C-Mac]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

Well, in the link, that's just a show of patriotism and support for the troops that parishoners would have. You'll see those everywhere. It's not like the Vatican is deciding that they support American troops in the War on Terror. They just wouldn't make that statement. It's more complicated than how I could explain it.

The Just War Theory gets around that commandment and also how Jesus said turn the other cheek. Some people are complete pacifists, and I can admire and respect that - they have great reasons for it. I personally believe that we can protect ourselves and our loved ones. Many people do.

If only you could hear yourself. You want to believe the bible principles and what Jesus taught but your torn because your church sits on a fence. If all the Catholic churches support the troops of their particular country and the Vatican doesn't denounce it....then they support it by default. Just like they did during the holocaust. By not taking a firm moral stand against it, they just sat back and let it happen. The German Catholic church was basically in bed with Hitler an the Vatican feared him and remained silent. The sin of omission applies to the church too.

[Jenson71]

No, I don't see it as a huge conflict. You need a good military for national defense and other things. A lot of people support the troops without maybe supporting policies that the troops undertake.

I think anyone that knew what Hitler was doing to people and supported him was wrong.

I don't know all the details of the Churche's relations with Hitler. I know he was liked by many Germans. I don't know what the extent of the Church's support was after Kristallnacht, I can't really say much.