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Old 10-05-2012, 09:30 AM   #1
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Originally Posted by KC_Connection View Post
Trout's 2012 season was actually better (in terms of both offensive rate stats and overall value) than anything Ken Griffey Jr. ever did in a single season over his entire career.

But sure, let's just keep pretending it wasn't anything special and downplaying it because TRIPLE CROWN!
And yet not as good as Matt Kemp's 2011 season - the same Matt Kemp that didn't win the MVP last year.

But that's right, he only scored 115 runs and stole 40 bases when he was hitting 1/3 more HRs and driving in 50% more runs.

It was a great season - but a season very similar to it happens every other year or so.
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:35 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by DJ's left nut View Post
And yet not as good as Matt Kemp's 2011 season - the same Matt Kemp that didn't win the MVP last year.

But that's right, he only scored 115 runs and stole 40 bases when he was hitting 1/3 more HRs and driving in 50% more runs.

It was a great season - but a season very similar to it happens every other year or so.
And?

Kemp was better than Braun last year. All that Kemp not winning shows is that voting for an individual award based on a team effort is stupid.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:12 AM   #3
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And?

Kemp was better than Braun last year. All that Kemp not winning shows is that voting for an individual award based on a team effort is stupid.
My point is that the season is nowhere near unprecedented. It was bested last season by Kemp.

And I also made a mistake in taking the rest of that claim by KC Connection at face value - the idea that Trout's season was never bested by Junior.

Look at Griffey's 1997 season:

125 R, 56HR, 147 RBI, 15 steals and an OPS of 1.028 - That season crushes the season that Trout put up this year. Trout only has an appreciable edge in steals.

Yet WAR has Trout as having a better season this year than Griffey did in 1997. Why? Because WAR is not dispositive of anything and can be wrong just as easily as RBI can. WAR should be looked at as just another tool, not the tool that answers all questions.

Leave it to the super stats crowd to actually try to claim that Trouts season was better than Griffeys 96, 97, 98 or even 93. Griffey did get the MVP in 97, but not the other 3 years.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:19 PM   #4
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And yet not as good as Matt Kemp's 2011 season - the same Matt Kemp that didn't win the MVP last year.

But that's right, he only scored 115 runs and stole 40 bases when he was hitting 1/3 more HRs and driving in 50% more runs.

It was a great season - but a season very similar to it happens every other year or so.
Kemp may have had a fantastic offensive season in 2011, but he doesn't add anywhere close to the value that Trout does defensively in CF. They are miles apart in what they bring to the table as baseball players overall.
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Old 10-04-2012, 05:35 PM   #5
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searched for Jeff Francour on google and this thread didn't come up
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:18 PM   #6
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:56 AM   #7
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But what about the first Triple Crown in 45 years?

Great accomplishment. But the award recognizes the most valuable player, not the most valuable hitter, and Trout's vastly superior baserunning and defense trumps Cabrera's moderate offensive advantage. Moreover, the Triple Crown only looks at three measures of offense, one of them highly team-dependent (runs batted in). It tells us nothing about Cabrera's walks, singles, doubles, triples, steals, times grounding into double plays, or any number of other stats. Yelling "Triple Crown!" and dropping a metaphorical mic is not a cogent argument.

But what about Cabrera going off in September, while Trout cooled down?

One win counts for one win in April, May, June, July, August, or September. But if you want to try to ascribe higher leverage to September at-bats the way you would ninth-inning at-bats in tie games, sure, go ahead.

But what about Cabrera leading his team to the playoffs, while Trout led his team to the golf course?

Leaving aside the Angels' superior record in a much tougher division, the teammates your general manager picks for you should have no bearing on a player's value. Trout did more this year to help his team win than did Cabrera (or anyone else, including Robinson Cano, who's had a hell of a year and could be argued to have produced about as much value as Cabrera, maybe even a little more) and Adrian Beltre (another candidate with value comparable to Cabrera's who's not coming up in the main Trout vs. Cabrera debate). He is therefore the league's most valuable player.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...b-awards-field
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:00 AM   #8
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I think we've gotten to the point where we're trying too hard to be smart here. I 100% agree Cabrera's season is not unprecedented statistically... but he still bested all of his peers in the Triple Crown categories. Each season is it's own beast, it is still a great accomplishment. You can't take it away from him.

Although I'm not necessarily a for picking the MVP from playoff teams... Cabrera did lead his team to the playoffs, that should count for something. He hit .337 with 26 HR's, 1.074 OPS in the 2nd half of the season, great numbers... including 10 HR's in September.
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:57 PM   #9
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i think everyone KNOWS that they need not come from a playoff team...

nothing ground breaking there
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:06 PM   #10
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i think everyone KNOWS that they need not come from a playoff team...

nothing ground breaking there
Quote:
Now I'm not the real crusty old guy that says you can't win the MVP if your team isn't in the playoffs
She's really bringing the heat in this thread...
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:42 PM   #11
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i think everyone KNOWS that they need not come from a playoff team...

nothing ground breaking there
Well it seems as if thats the main sticking point to discredit Trout, other than triple Crown, which isnt an automatic MVP either, art least not historically.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:36 AM   #12
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Wow, Cabrera won the MVP over Trout yesterday and not a peep.....Chiefsplanet is slipping....




http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...s_det&c_id=mlb
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Matt once made a very nice play in Seattle where he spun away from a pass rusher and hit Bowe off his back foot for a first down.

One of the best plays Matt has ever made.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:51 AM   #13
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Wow, Cabrera won the MVP over Trout yesterday and not a peep.....Chiefsplanet is slipping....




http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...s_det&c_id=mlb
I think we had pretty much all the conversation about this that was possible the first time....

But I will point out that only Cabrera's line is Triple-Crown winning only two times in the past 60 years.
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:58 AM   #14
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I think we had pretty much all the conversation about this that was possible the first time....

But I will point out that only Cabrera's line is Triple-Crown winning only two times in the past 60 years.
The Triple Crown is unique and special....but i will say this....is it overrated a little bit?

What if one guy batted .310 45HRs and 125 RBIs one season and won the Triple Crown


The next year a guy bats .320 with 46 Hrs and 130 RBIs and loses the triple crown because other players had a better average or more HRs that year.....is his season any less over all? Alot of it is just luck isnt it?
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Originally Posted by Cassel's Reckoning:

Matt once made a very nice play in Seattle where he spun away from a pass rusher and hit Bowe off his back foot for a first down.

One of the best plays Matt has ever made.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:04 AM   #15
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The Triple Crown is unique and special....but i will say this....is it overrated a little bit?

What if one guy batted .310 45HRs and 125 RBIs one season and won the Triple Crown


The next year a guy bats .320 with 46 Hrs and 130 RBIs and loses the triple crown because other players had a better average or more HRs that year.....is his season any less over all? Alot of it is just luck isnt it?
I would agree with that.

The average and home run totals Cabrera put up this season, while studly, are not league-leading totals most seasons.

I won't really complain about Cabrera winning. It's not like he's unworthy. I just think Trout was better.
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