These "parents" should face criminal charges

[DaneMcCloud]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by chasedude

I'm not a christian nor am I affiliated with any organized religion. I find it a waste of time and mental energy.

Why would I have to have a religious belief to understand what's going on? Do you not think I'm intellectual enough to grasp that these people are putting a God that, obviously did nothing to help, above the welfare of their child.

We live in the 22 century, it pains me to see something as archaic like this still being practiced. Wake up to common sense, this is my point.

You do have to have a religious belief to understand what is going on with this, there is no way around it. All you can see is your side of the issue, which is purely secular. You do not have the concept other than your disdain for what has happened.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Sure-Oz

That's fine and dandy in what they believe in but the child got no say or choice in weather they could be treated. This is negligence if anything...their child died because they didn't take proper action. Are you telling me you would be fine with your child dieing as well in this fashion if that was your religion. Even though you knew that they could possibly live doing this. I'd take a bullet for my child, makes me wonder if they could get that concept.

You do not know that. How old was the kid? What would her age of accountability be? The proper action for them was to do as they did. Not put their child into the hands of a doctor in which they did not believe.

You live in a different space than that family and the other members of their church. You can't conceive of what happened because you do not understand where they are coming from. It's simple as that.

[Sully]

Originally Posted by a1na2

He is not on ignore other than I reject his opinion as he does not reply to the topic but to the poster. He has no capacity to read beyond a1na2. Basically neither do you, if both of you could there wouldn't be the cheap shots where nobody can see them as well as addressing the topic of the thread rather than being excessively childish and calling names.

You ever hear the term, "You made the bed, now lie in it?"

It's bedtime.

It's amazing how quickly you can switch from "poor me, everyone attacks me without provocation" to saying, unprovoked, "You're a moron! You're an idiot!"

The humor that is your posting style, unintended, to be sure, is the highlight of being on this message board.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by sedated

and the parents believe that they sent their child to heaven, rather than prolonging life on earth while ending her chance to go to heaven in the end.

I (we) may think they are a couple of whack-jobs, but they feel better, and that's all that really matters I guess.



I've seen families torn apart because of religion. There's no reasoning with religious people. So just let them live their sideways life, and keep them from doing harm to you.

Totally missed the point. Put the crack pipe down and move away from the discussion!

Tell me, have you ever seen religion do good in someone's life? Yes, it's a loaded question.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Sully

I have nothing to say because I don't understand what is going on, I just like attacking because of my personal hatred!

Fixed your post.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Sully

You ever hear the term, "You made the bed, now lie in it?"

It's amazing how quickly you can switch from "poor me, everyone attacks me without provocation" to saying, unprovoked, "You're a moron! You're an idiot!"

Dude, I don't care if you hate me, that's in your purview. The fact that you can only answer any post I make with name calling and insults leaves little for rebuttal but to return the favor.

Try getting a life and then participating in the discussion. If you can't do that just STFD and !

[CosmicPal]

The state of Wisconsin has some backwards law protecting the parents on this kind of neglect:

(Discovered this little gem from the book, When Prayers Fail)

State statute 948.03(6) provides an exemption from the law against failing to act to protect children from bodily harm for what is referred to as "Treatment through prayer." The statute says: "A person is not guilty of an offense under this section solely because he or she provides a child with treatment by spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with the religious method of healing ... in lieu of medical or surgical treatment."

...the statute drew some attention in 2003, when a two-year-old autistic child in Milwaukee was crushed to death during an attempted exorcism. The practitioner was convicted, albeit of a lesser offense than what some felt was appropriate. Afterwards, Milwaukee County District Attorney E. Michael McCann urged state lawmakers to remove this exemption, lest it lead to what he called "mischief." Wisconsin's do-little Legislature has not done so.

Peters, in an interview, says the Milwaukee case "illuminated the fact that the law was there." He suspects it found its way into the statute books through the efforts of Christian Scientists, as in other states with similar exemptions.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Common sense is not the issue here.

It absolutely is. These parents lack of common sense is why they have to bury their daughter. How can you defend this nonsense?

[Sully]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Fixed your post.

I don't hate you, T om Cash.
I think you are funny.
When I see you have posted, I run to see what it was, because it almost ALWAYS makes me laugh.

[MIAdragon]

Originally Posted by Third Eye

There you go.

[Sully]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Dude, I don't care if you hate me, that's in your purview. The fact that you can only answer any post I make with name calling and insults leaves little for rebuttal but to return the favor.

Try getting a life and then participating in the discussion. If you can't do that just STFD and !

I can't think of any times I've ever called you a name. If I have, it hasn't been more than one or two times, tops. I tend not to "call names." It's not all that creative.
And like I said, I don't hate you at all. I feel sorry for you from time to time. I certainly don't have a shred of respect for you. But your posts are great. they give me MANY laughs.

[CosmicPal]

Here's my 2 cents, not that it really matters, but....

I can't answer for the parents, but I would bet you anything that if their daughter was riding down the street in her bicycle and some car came from out of nowhere and threw her off her bicycle that they would be taking their daughter to the nearest ER as fast as they could. Not a prayer in this world would've saved their daughter from the head-on collision with a moving car.

So, the fact that they used prayer as a means to heal their daughter's illness IS in fact, neglect.

However, the article did mention the diabetes was "undiagnosed." Therefore, it is possible they didn't know it was terminal. Which, of course, is neglect.

I have to wonder if the mother was such a religious fanatic that she wanted her daughter to make a complete recovery so she could run around telling everyone about her "Miracle" with prayer. She would've been so proud.

However, now that it obviously back-fired, does she still promote prayer as a healing mechanism? And is she now mad at her God for not listening?

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

It absolutely is. These parents lack of common sense is why they have to bury their daughter. How can you defend this nonsense?

How many times does it have to be said? Their belief system does not allow them to consult with doctors. It's not a common sense issue, it has 100% to do with their religious belief.

The defense of their belief is guaranteed in the US Constitution and it's amendments. It's pure and simple.

I would comment that you lack much life experience to understand the issue but I know people that are younger than you that fully understand the issue.

I would bet that you are one of those that stood up and complained about the Patriot Act because of the freedoms it devoided you of.

[MIAdragon]

Originally Posted by a1na2

How many times does it have to be said? Their belief system does not allow them to consult with doctors
.

Where are you getting this from? In the posted article it says;

"believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors."

Im not getting that they aren’t "allowed" to consult with them, they simply chose not too.>>
>>

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by CosmicPal

Here's my 2 cents, not that it really matters, but....

I can't answer for the parents, but I would bet you anything that if their daughter was riding down the street in her bicycle and some car came from out of nowhere and threw her off her bicycle that they would be taking their daughter to the nearest ER as fast as they could. Not a prayer in this world would've saved their daughter from the head-on collision with a moving car.

So, the fact that they used prayer as a means to heal their daughter's illness IS in fact, neglect.

However, the article did mention the diabetes was "undiagnosed." Therefore, it is possible they didn't know it was terminal. Which, of course, is neglect.

I have to wonder if the mother was such a religious fanatic that she wanted her daughter to make a complete recovery so she could run around telling everyone about her "Miracle" with prayer. She would've been so proud.

However, now that it obviously back-fired, does she still promote prayer as a healing mechanism? And is she now mad at her God for not listening?

You make valid points, but you assume that their religion allows them to use doctors, hospitals and other medical assets that we all take for granted.

Undiagnosed illness is not grounds for neglect if your faith system is not in medical science. One of my co-workers does not believe in doctors, medicines, even aspirin, or emergency services. If an event happens in their family they deal with it to the best of their ability.

As for your last comment. I would say that their feeling is that it was Gods will for the kid to pass when she did and although grieved they accepted the death just as you would if your kid died in an emergency room. Death does not necessarily change someone's faith. Those without faith have a hard time seeing that, even those that claim faith (Jenson) has trouble seeing that.

People do not understand that God has the last say in all situations (I know there are more non-believers here than believers - or it seems to be indicated by the number of "kill them" type replies) even for the unbelievers.

Like I've said numerous times here. I believe that God put physicians here as tools for us all, but every strain of religion does not share my belief. I'm standing on the preface that each religion has different views and those that are not affiliated with that particular faith cannot understand the whys and why nots associated with that faith.