These "parents" should face criminal charges

[DaneMcCloud]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080328/...s_death_prayer

Parents pick prayer over docs; girl dies

WESTON, Wis. - Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

She insisted her youngest child, a wiry girl known to wear her straight brown hair in a ponytail, was in good health until recently.

"We just noticed a tiredness within the past two weeks," she said Wednesday. "And then just the day before and that day (she died), it suddenly just went to a more serious situation. We stayed fast in prayer then. We believed that she would recover. We saw signs that to us, it looked like she was recovering."

Her daughter — who hadn't seen a doctor since she got some shots as a 3-year-old, according to Vergin — had no fever and there was warmth in her body, she said.

The girl's father, Dale Neumann, a former police officer, said he started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

Family members elsewhere called authorities to seek help for the girl.

"My sister-in-law, she's very religious, she believes in faith instead of doctors ...," the girl's aunt told a sheriff's dispatcher Sunday afternoon in a call from California. "And she called my mother-in-law today ... and she explained to us that she believes her daughter's in a coma now and she's relying on faith."

The dispatcher got more information from the caller and asked whether an ambulance should be sent.

"Please," the woman replied. "I mean, she's refusing. She's going to fight it. ... We've been trying to get her to take her to the hospital for a week, a few days now."

The aunt called back with more information on the family's location, emergency logs show. Family friends also made a 911 call from the home. Police and paramedics arrived within minutes and immediately called for an ambulance that took her to a hospital.

But less than an hour after authorities reached the home, Madeline — a bright student who left public school for home schooling this semester — was declared dead.

She is survived by her parents and three older siblings.

"We are remaining strong for our children," Leilani Neumann said. "Only our faith in God is giving us strength at this time."

The Neumanns said they moved from California to a modern, middle-class home in woodsy Weston, just outside Wassau in central Wisconsin, about two years ago to open a coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. A basketball hoop is set up in the driveway.

Leilani Neumann said she and her husband are not worried about the investigation because "our lives are in God's hands. We know we did not do anything criminal. We know we did the best for our daughter we knew how to do."

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

1.) They did not seek professional help, or give medical treatment. Authorities said this. Relatives said this. The parents said this.

Which of the parents were doctors? How could they give medical treatment? All they could do is what they knew to do with a sick child.

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by C-Mac

If only you could hear yourself. You want to believe the bible principles and what Jesus taught but your torn because your church sits on a fence. If all the Catholic churches support the troops of their particular country and the Vatican doesn't denounce it....then they support it by default. Just like they did during the holocaust. By not taking a firm moral stand against it, they just sat back and let it happen. The German Catholic church was basically in bed with Hitler an the Vatican feared him and remained silent. The sin of omission applies to the church too.

That's actually a lot of baloney promoted by certain anti-Catholic groups. It actually traces back to a certain play iirc. Then it just trickled down as a truth. It isn't. It's a rumor and/or smear on the RCC. Even past Jewish leaders praised Pope Pius XII's work before and during the war years. In fact it was RC's that hid Jewish people and children throughout the countryside with some in monasteries and church basements.

“During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and commiserate with the victims.” — GOLD MEIR @ UN General Assembly at the Pope’s death in 1958

Some of the Jewish organizations that praised Pope Pius XII at the time of his death for saving Jewish lives during the horror of the Nazi Holocaust were: the World Jewish Congress, the Anti-Defamation League, the Synagogue Council of America, the Rabbinical Council of America, the American Jewish Congress, the New York Board of Rabbis, the American Jewish Committee, the Central Conference of American Rabbis, the American Jewish Committee, the Central Conference of American Rabbis, the National Conference of Christians and Jews and the National Council of Jewish Women.— GOLD MEIR @ UN General Assembly at the Pope’s death in 1958

Link

[BucEyedPea]

Originally Posted by Adept Havelock

I'm pleased most state laws seem to agree with this position.

Sorry, but the fact that "The parents heart was in the right place" doesn't excuse ignoring medical treatment for their sick child.

JMO.

I never said if "the parents heart is in the right place." You changed my words.

Most state laws apparently don't agree still according to this link. Even Canada grants the freedom to chose faith healing. There are still many more states with religious exemptions in child abuse laws including in Wisconsin.

In 1974, the U.S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare first required states to have clauses in their child abuse and neglect legislation that permits exemptions on religious grounds. If a state refused, they would not receive federal child abuse protection grants. By 1999, 40 (one source says 41) states had complied. Parents who choose prayer in place of medical care for a sick or injured child cannot be prosecuted in those jurisdictions. This federal regulation no longer exists, but most the state laws remain on the books. In only 4 states have these laws been overturned by the courts on constitutional grounds: HI, MA, MD & SD as the other two.

Committees in the Oregon legislature heard testimony in 1999-MAR for and against House bills 2494 and 2596. These would require all parents to obtain medical help for their seriously sick or injured children. The bills have strong backing from both parties, law enforcement, physicians, social workers and child advocates. "...there was limited testimony from Christian Scientists who warned that eliminating the so-called spiritual defense from Oregon's homicide statutes and other areas of the law would unfairly impose upon their religious rights." 3 The House later endorsed a compromise faith healing bill that allows defendants to claim faith healing as a defense.

In 6 states (AR, DE, IA, OH, OR, and WV) additional laws are on the books that prevent charges of criminal homicide or manslaughter being laid against parents and guardians.

[DaneMcCloud]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Childish name calling again. You need to get a new schtick.

You assume things that you do not know. What proof do you have that they did nothing and just watched he die? You don't have that proof all you have is what you feel they should have done. Your comment about rape and incest is so far off the topic and ridiculous that I won't even comment.

The did what they did based on their belief. I don't give them a "free pass" on anyting because I was not there either. They said in the story they did what they knew to do, one of the things they did was pray. They chose not to take her to a doctor. Once again I say that you cannot force them to do your will nor follow your standards.

I would like to know at which university you did your pre-med as well as your internship. Which kind of doctor are you?

Even if you were a doctor you could not state an opinion of what happened at that home at that time because you were not there.

And again, it is none of your business and you still cannot force a family to take their child to a doctor.

The mere fact that they didn't take her to a doctor after a month-long illness that led to her death is more than enough to bring these "parents" up on criminal charges. Child endangerment and neglect for starters.

Why you can't understand that is quite impossible for me to comprehend. Let alone, defend these people. As I stated earlier (which you completely ignored), if this family had neglected their child in the name of Satan, YOU would be first in line to scrutinize them. Without a shred of doubt.

The citizens of this country just can't "do" whatever they want or whatever they feel like. We can't just run around and make up our own set of laws. While there might not be a law on the books that states that a parent must take their sick child to the doctor every time they're sick, it's just fucking common sense for most of the 300 million that live in this country.

And claiming that "God" would heal her is just another reason for this family to thoroughly examined by government officials. It's just plain WRONG for ANYONE to let their child suffer and die.

How you can argue that is inconceivable, despite your "beliefs".

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

You put up some good information, not complete, but good. What you have still failed to acknowledge is that the parents did not know she was diabetic and by the time the girl was that far along, according to you, it was too late.

They didn't have to know she was diabetic. All they have to do is see that something is wrong with the girl. She had symptoms that indicated she needed medical help.

You have gone to such great lengths to defends these parents. Freedom of religion, none of our business, demanding the stages of diabetic ketoacidosis, claiming I condone partial birth abortions, saying I'm too young and ignorant to understand this all, etc.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

The mere fact that they didn't take her to a doctor after a month-long illness that led to her death is more than enough to bring these "parents" up on criminal charges. Child endangerment and neglect for starters.

Not in the state that they live in. You cannot force anyone to take someone to the doctor. Besides, again, you cannot force your will or your values on someone else.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

Why you can't understand that is quite impossible for me to comprehend. Let alone, defend these people. As I stated earlier (which you completely ignored), if this family had neglected their child in the name of Satan, YOU would be first in line to scrutinize them. Without a shred of doubt.

You are wrong. It is none of my business, just as it is none of your business. Would I think it was right? No. Do I think it was right in this case? No. It's simply not my concern just as it is not your concern. You assume far too much and speculate more that a wildcat oilman.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

The citizens of this country just can't "do" whatever they want or whatever they feel like. We can't just run around and make up our own set of laws. While there might not be a law on the books that states that a parent must take their sick child to the doctor every time they're sick, it's just fucking common sense for most of the 300 million that live in this country.

They didn't make up any laws. The law cannot compel you to take a family member to a doctor, it simply cannot be done. You cannot force anyone to do your will or impose your beliefs on them.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

And claiming that "God" would heal her is just another reason for this family to thoroughly examined by government officials. It's just plain WRONG for ANYONE to let their child suffer and die.

It is obvious that you have never been involved in a case where someone had a miraculous healing. I have been and know that it happens. You cannot assume that God does not exist just because you do not believe in him. You can deny all you want, but that does not make your belief any more or less true than my belief.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud

How you can argue that is inconceivable, despite your "beliefs".

The argument is that you have no right to impose your beliefs or lack of beliefs on anyone in this country for any reason. If I want to believe that you are jabba the hut, I can do so. If I want to believe that you are the biggest waste of human flesh on the planet I can do so. Likewise, you can scream out about your disdain for what I believe to be the rights of those parents, but there is nothing wrong with my belief that we live in a free country that gives us the freedom to choose what we do.

You still assume that this family sat on their ass and just waited for this child to die. I feel that you are wrong and based on the fact that parents love their children, did everything that they could to give aid. Your screaming that they did not take her to a doctor is irrelevant as you cannot force them to do so.

Defend them? No. Defending their right to do as they feel is right, yes.

[a1na2]

Originally Posted by Jenson71

They didn't have to know she was diabetic. All they have to do is see that something is wrong with the girl. She had symptoms that indicated she needed medical help.

Once again you are showing your lack of knowledge of the situation. If you know your kid is sick and do not trust or use doctors you do what you can. You cannot force someone to have your set of rules for rearing kids. You have no rules as you don't have any kids. Once you get married you may find that your opinion here is pretty much a utopian concept that does not have any reality associated with it.

Originally Posted by Jenson71

You have gone to such great lengths to defends these parents. Freedom of religion, none of our business, demanding the stages of diabetic ketoacidosis, claiming I condone partial birth abortions, saying I'm too young and ignorant to understand this all, etc.

You are either too stubborn to change your concept of what is happening or not smart enough to see that you do not have a call in the situation. You don't even know the facts of the situation other than the story that was posted yet you claim many things that are going on.

You have not said that you do not condone partial birth abortions, you also have not said that you are against abortions et al.

I do not approve of abortions for the sake of being able to have sex freely and then kill your mistake when you get caught. I don't like the idea of abortion at all, but I understand that there are times when that procedure is necessary for a varity of reasons. To me, abortion is nothing more than legalized murder or extermination for the convenience of someone that couldn't control their urges.

I asked for, not demanded, the stages of ketoacidosis because you made such a big issue of it without regard for the different stages that the disease and how it could be treated.

Ketoacidosis usually develops slowly. But when vomiting occurs, this life-threatening condition can develop in a few hours.

How to treat ketoacidosis
Treatment of ketoacidosis may require insulin and fluids as ordered by your doctor. You may be put in the hospital unless ketoacidosis is detected and treated in the early stages. Ketoacidosis can result in coma and possibly death.

As you can see, there are easy links to find information, but you declined to do so, even to refer to a search because your basis of belief is not fully correct.

Ketoacidosis is a slow onset in type 1 people. The "how to treat" above says that you MAY need insulin and fluids.

There are far too many issues that you expected the parents of this girl to know, even when her diabetes was not diagnosed. You assume that they automatically knew that she was diabetic and refused treatment. You were wrong and continue to be wrong.

They didn't know and did what they felt best. They were wrong and it cost them dearly. I see that you cannot number compassion as one of your redeeming qualities.

[mikey23545]

How long has your God demanded human sacrifice?

[Adept Havelock]

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

I never said if "the parents heart is in the right place." You changed my words.

I intended to use that phrase to (correctly) summarize Tom's position. Though I used it several times throughout the thread, my apologies for using it in the response directed towards you without that clarification. I don't know your position on the subject, so I wouldn't presume to attribute one to you.

Originally Posted by BucEyedPea

Most state laws apparently don't agree still according to this link. Even Canada grants the freedom to chose faith healing. There are still many more states with religious exemptions in child abuse laws including in Wisconsin.

It's truly a pity religion overrides common sense as it applies to the well being of children in those states. JMO.

Originally Posted by Jenson71

You have gone to such great lengths to defends these parents. Freedom of religion, none of our business, demanding the stages of diabetic ketoacidosis, claiming I condone partial birth abortions, saying I'm too young and ignorant to understand this all, etc.

I wonder if he'd have the same attitude if they were Scientologists or some other fringe religion/cult that believed medical care was a violation of their faith.

[Hootie]

Looks like Tom can't make up his mind.

Originally Posted by a1na2

The child dying was a tragedy, but I do not feel that the parents are criminal.

Originally Posted by a1na2

It is none of my business, just as it is none of your business. Would I think it was right? No. Do I think it was right in this case? No.

Originally Posted by a1na2

The proper action for them was to do as they did.

Originally Posted by a1na2

My point is that the family did as they believed as right. I am in no position to tell them it was wrong as is nobody else on this board.

Originally Posted by a1na2

Were the parents criminally negligent? No, I don't think so.

Originally Posted by a1na2

I maintain that we cannot force our perceptions of right and wrong into this case as we are not living in their shoes.

[Adept Havelock]

Originally Posted by Hootie

Looks like Tom can't make up his mind.

Careful. He'll tell you how young you are, how you aren't smart enough to "get it", how your faith or lack thereof doesn't possibly allow you to understand, how you just can't see the parents heart was in the right place, etc.

Originally Posted by - ahem, shut your mouth -

I maintain that we cannot force our perceptions of right and wrong into this case as we are not living in their shoes.

Well I'll be. Who knew - ahem, shut your mouth - supported the Liberal belief of Moral Relativism?

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

You have no rules as you don't have any kids. Once you get married you may find that your opinion here is pretty much a utopian concept that does not have any reality associated with it.

You honestly think that when I get married, my views on getting sick children medical help will change? You think getting a kid a doctor is a utopian concept with no reality associated with it?

You are either too stubborn to change your concept of what is happening or not smart enough to see that you do not have a call in the situation.

That's exactly right! I am too stubborn in demanding that parents use common sense and when their child is showing severe signs of illness, they get medical help. I'm glad to be stubborn in this way. I bet my children will be glad I'm stubborn like that.

[J Diddy]

damn is this what this website is reduced to

--everybody bitching at each other all the time

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

There are far too many issues that you expected the parents of this girl to know, even when her diabetes was not diagnosed. You assume that they automatically knew that she was diabetic and refused treatment. You were wrong and continue to be wrong.

I will repeat this once again for you, in a different way, in hope that you will finally come to understand this about my argument.

They parents did not have to be doctors. The parents did not have to know the daughter was diabetic. All they had to have was the simple common sense that would have recognized that their daughter was sick and needed medical help. They refused to get medical help. They neglected the needs of their child, and it led to her death.

[Jenson71]

Originally Posted by a1na2

Ketoacidosis is a slow onset in type 1 people. The "how to treat" above says that you MAY need insulin and fluids.

You NEED insulin and fluids so you can survive. That goes for all people, diabetic or not. If you do not get those, you will die. There is no "may"