Ethics and Honor - A Rain Man Rant - Page 2

**Rain Man** · 05-02-2005, 08:49 PM

Gol'dang it, I'm ticked off.

We've implemented a very challenging and time consuming process to hire people in my firm, in an effort to get the people who are most likely to be successful. We implemented it last year, and it took us three months to find a strong candidate for a relatively quantitative position. It was a college student who was supposed to graduate in May, and we made her the offer in January, with the agreement that she would start part time in January and then go full time in May.

Well, she's been working for us part time for four months, and was supposed to start full time two weeks from today. So what does she do today? She turns in her two-week notice. Her two-week notice!

Now, if the job wasn't a fit, that's fine. But it was. She was doing good work for us, we all liked her, and she seemed to be genuinely interested in the work. She had a great future here. But get this: It turns out that she continued interviewing for jobs after she accepted our job offer, and she actually accepted a second job offer AFTER SHE WAS WORKING AT MY COMPANY. She then strung my firm along for who knows how long, letting us think that she was keeping her commitment to start full time after graduation, while knowing full well that she was going to screw us over on short notice. Now we're having a busy month, and the person that I've been working my schedule around to accommodate a part-time schedule is freaking quitting, RIGHT WHEN SHE HAD COMMITTED TO STEP UP.

It ticks me off for about a thousand reasons. Dang it. What is wrong with people today? If someone treats you well, don't slam their fingers in the car door.

Stupid people. I hate people. From here on out, I'm just hiring cats.

**Rain Man** · 05-02-2005, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iowanian

From her perspective.....

Lets say next month, and the month after go slow....since I'm told the President is ruining the economy, the war is going poorly and gas prices are in the stratosphere....Lets say the month after that is worse than the previous too, because all of the people needing market research are on vacation...

How long could the same girl, count on undevoted loyalty from an employer?

That's different, though. That's a business situation. The equivalent situation would be if I hired her, she started working for me, and I kept interviewing candidates and then fired her right before graduation because I found a stronger candidate.

Boozer · 05-02-2005, 09:09 PM

Shoulda made an employment contract for a term. 'Course, I bet you like to retain the right to terminate employment at will. Can't have it both ways.

**Nzoner** · 05-02-2005, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain Man

Only if the debil pays me. I'm very strict about that.

Sometimes I think employees are the debil.

cheeeefs · 05-02-2005, 09:10 PM

I'll come work for you Rainman

I won't quit, promise!

As an added bonus, I won't leave when you fire me either! How is THAT for dedication?!

**morphius** · 05-02-2005, 09:11 PM

I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter after working at fortune 500 companies my entire career, but I don't see much loyalty to employee's from the employer any more, so why should employer's expect it?

**Iowanian** · 05-02-2005, 09:13 PM

...but she turned down another job, which could have still kept her employed for the duration......

Mostly, I'm just poking your cage with a stick, but I've had an employer take a dump on me, after I accepted a job with them and turned down another for More money.....

I know its crappy, and leaves you in a bind....and for causing your beard to Molt, I hope she gets herpes, but loyalty is a strange thing in todays market.

2 years ago, I turned down a $15k raise to move to another town for another job........Out of loyalty, I decided to stay, and asked my employer for a raise....It took 9 months, to get 4k(see also -11k/yr)......upon that, they asked me to guarantee I'd stay 2 years............I told them that my word was binding. I don't give my word without meaning it.

my word is binding if I gave it, but before I did, could the Boss GUARANTEE, that under NO circumstances would I not find myself out of a job, due to budgets etc.........He couldn't. I didn't.

I told him I would not actively seek employment for a year, but have other companies call me all the time......I've had 3 unsolicited offers since New Years.

my 2 years are up.......if you'd like to open an Iowa division, I'm available......but I'm not taking your fargin MENSA test.

tommykat · 05-02-2005, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphius

I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter after working at fortune 500 companies my entire career, but I don't see much loyalty to employee's from the employer any more, so why should employer's expect it?

TOUCHE'

stevieray · 05-02-2005, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nzoner 338

Speaking of treating people well,I don't remember you guys leaving the other night,so see ya later and thanks for coming.

seriously, you don't remember? AC/Dc was on the tube...

FallingAlice · 05-02-2005, 09:15 PM

Have you talked to her about it? Either casually or in the context of a formal "exit interview?" Not to say that she'll be honest with you. She probably won't. But it's worth a try.

From your perspective it was a great fit and she was doing well. But it's rare for someone (especially a bright woman in math and science) to do what she's done without some reason. Most of us don't leave employment that we really like.

Maybe from her perspective she didn't feel as though she fit in. Maybe there were things in the organizational culture that she found distasteful. Or maybe she felt that she was low-balled during salary negotiations and pulled a T.O. in order to get a whole lot more money elsewhere.

I don't what your company does. I don't mean to be sexist and I'm trying not to jump to conclusions but is your firm very male dominated? I've had friends and have myself worked in intensely male-dominated environments that we all found personally repellant. In these cases, most women pretend to get along, bite their tongues and find a way to leave as soon as possible. I'm not talking here about an environment of harrassment and overt discrimination, but one of not-so-subtle hostility and/or indifference. This is particularly true in science and engineering fields.

If she has a particularly savvy coping style then she could well leave you with the impression that she was comfortable with your company all the while hating it.

Of course, it may not be a gender thing. It may be how interesting the work is ... what she began to perceive her career trajectory might be ... her opinion of her supervisor... lifestyle and general corporate culture issues ... or ... again ... money. Regardless, I would look at this as a labor market issue (not so much an ethical issue) and I would try to find out why she bolted so fast.

In the end, the important question for you is employee recruitment and retention. In the long run, the answer to that question is what's valuable to your company.

**Rain Man** · 05-02-2005, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphius

I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter after working at fortune 500 companies my entire career, but I don't see much loyalty to employee's from the employer any more, so why should employer's expect it?

I understand the whole loyalty thing, and it's an employee's right to leave, but she had hardly even started. To me, this is not about loyalty so much as it is keeping your word.

I mean, this gal is engaged to be married. Is she still dating to see if maybe she can snag a better husband before the wedding?

**Iowanian** · 05-02-2005, 09:18 PM

maybe the leaving has more to do with her impending marraige and a job her to be hubby has taken somewhere else...............

cheeeefs · 05-02-2005, 09:18 PM

*sniff* I didn't even get an obligatory "We'll call you"

**Nzoner** · 05-02-2005, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevieray

seriously, you don't remember? AC/Dc was on the tube...

I don't wanna interfere with Kevin's rant,so just a head's up your inbox is FULL.

Stinger · 05-02-2005, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morphius

I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter after working at fortune 500 companies my entire career, but I don't see much loyalty to employee's from the employer any more, so why should employer's expect it?

What it boils down to is there is a right and wrong way of doing things, not everyone abides by them, be it the employer or employee. But if something does happen you hope it is on the up and up and not like Rain Man has witnessed.

I think that all of us in the business realm would like that. Heck I have been let go a couple times in my business career once was on the up and up and I can live with that, that is business. The other wasn't, that was business too, but still hurt (but karma is a you know what and all I can say haha

)

All you can say is that there is a right way and wrong way about doing things and you have to look yourself in the mirror at the end of the day.

4th and Long · 05-02-2005, 09:23 PM

There's a simple fix for this. Make your new employees sign a contract for "X" number of years. We do that with the physicians we hire and include a no compete clause to make sure they aren't working for the competitor during their off hours.

View Poll Results: In which situations is either party being unethical or dishonorable?
A. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, employer fires student within 90 days for poor job performance.	0	0%
B. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, student quits within 90 days after finding 'better' job.	0	0%
C. Employer makes job offer to college student, student starts work, employer lays off student within 90 days due to slow business.	3	21.43%
D. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer rescinds offer before start date because a stronger candidate came available by pure happenstance	9	64.29%
E. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer continues to interview candidates for that position, employer rescinds offer before start date because a stronger candidate was located.	11	78.57%
F. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, employer rescinds offer before start date due to slow business.	4	28.57%
G. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student reneges on offer before start date because another 'better' job offer arrived by pure happenstance.	3	21.43%
H. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student continues to actively interview for other jobs, student reneges on offer before start date because another 'better' job offer was received.	9	64.29%
I. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student reneges on offer after beginning pre-job paid training program because another 'better' job offer arrived by pure happenstance.	7	50.00%
J. Employer makes job offer to college student, student accepts job, student continues to actively interview for other jobs, student reneges on offer after beginning pre-job paid training program because another 'better' job offer was received.	11	78.57%
None of these represent unethical or dishonorable behavior.	1	7.14%
It depends on which one is me.	1	7.14%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

05-02-2005, 08:49 PM
Rain Man NFL's #1 Ermines Fan Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: My house Casino cash: $3188491 VARSITY	Ethics and Honor - A Rain Man Rant Gol'dang it, I'm ticked off. We've implemented a very challenging and time consuming process to hire people in my firm, in an effort to get the people who are most likely to be successful. We implemented it last year, and it took us three months to find a strong candidate for a relatively quantitative position. It was a college student who was supposed to graduate in May, and we made her the offer in January, with the agreement that she would start part time in January and then go full time in May. Well, she's been working for us part time for four months, and was supposed to start full time two weeks from today. So what does she do today? She turns in her two-week notice. Her two-week notice! Now, if the job wasn't a fit, that's fine. But it was. She was doing good work for us, we all liked her, and she seemed to be genuinely interested in the work. She had a great future here. But get this: It turns out that she continued interviewing for jobs after she accepted our job offer, and she actually accepted a second job offer AFTER SHE WAS WORKING AT MY COMPANY. She then strung my firm along for who knows how long, letting us think that she was keeping her commitment to start full time after graduation, while knowing full well that she was going to screw us over on short notice. Now we're having a busy month, and the person that I've been working my schedule around to accommodate a part-time schedule is freaking quitting, RIGHT WHEN SHE HAD COMMITTED TO STEP UP. It ticks me off for about a thousand reasons. Dang it. What is wrong with people today? If someone treats you well, don't slam their fingers in the car door. Stupid people. I hate people. From here on out, I'm just hiring cats.
Posts: 141,566

05-02-2005, 09:09 PM	#17
Boozer Pain Cake Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Lawrence, KS Casino cash: $10004900	Shoulda made an employment contract for a term. 'Course, I bet you like to retain the right to terminate employment at will. Can't have it both ways. __________________
Posts: 10,170

05-02-2005, 09:10 PM	#19
cheeeefs Aishwarya Rai Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Baltimore Casino cash: $10004900	I'll come work for you Rainman I won't quit, promise! As an added bonus, I won't leave when you fire me either! How is THAT for dedication?! __________________ "Yeah, I could do it. We both know you wouldn't stop me. Let's think about the logic. You create man, man suffers enormous amounts of pain, man dies. They say you rested on the seventh day, well maybe you should have spent that day on compassion."
Posts: 3,028

05-02-2005, 09:11 PM	#20
morphius World's finest morphius Join Date: Aug 2000 Casino cash: $6885027	I don't know, maybe I'm just bitter after working at fortune 500 companies my entire career, but I don't see much loyalty to employee's from the employer any more, so why should employer's expect it?
Posts: 25,973

05-02-2005, 09:13 PM	#21
Iowanian Supporter Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Utopia Casino cash: $4698454	...but she turned down another job, which could have still kept her employed for the duration...... Mostly, I'm just poking your cage with a stick, but I've had an employer take a dump on me, after I accepted a job with them and turned down another for More money..... I know its crappy, and leaves you in a bind....and for causing your beard to Molt, I hope she gets herpes, but loyalty is a strange thing in todays market. 2 years ago, I turned down a $15k raise to move to another town for another job........Out of loyalty, I decided to stay, and asked my employer for a raise....It took 9 months, to get 4k(see also -11k/yr)......upon that, they asked me to guarantee I'd stay 2 years............I told them that my word was binding. I don't give my word without meaning it. my word is binding if I gave it, but before I did, could the Boss GUARANTEE, that under NO circumstances would I not find myself out of a job, due to budgets etc.........He couldn't. I didn't. I told him I would not actively seek employment for a year, but have other companies call me all the time......I've had 3 unsolicited offers since New Years. my 2 years are up.......if you'd like to open an Iowa division, I'm available......but I'm not taking your fargin MENSA test.
Posts: 61,545

05-02-2005, 09:15 PM	#24
FallingAlice Starter Join Date: Sep 2002 Casino cash: $10004900	Have you talked to her about it? Either casually or in the context of a formal "exit interview?" Not to say that she'll be honest with you. She probably won't. But it's worth a try. From your perspective it was a great fit and she was doing well. But it's rare for someone (especially a bright woman in math and science) to do what she's done without some reason. Most of us don't leave employment that we really like. Maybe from her perspective she didn't feel as though she fit in. Maybe there were things in the organizational culture that she found distasteful. Or maybe she felt that she was low-balled during salary negotiations and pulled a T.O. in order to get a whole lot more money elsewhere. I don't what your company does. I don't mean to be sexist and I'm trying not to jump to conclusions but is your firm very male dominated? I've had friends and have myself worked in intensely male-dominated environments that we all found personally repellant. In these cases, most women pretend to get along, bite their tongues and find a way to leave as soon as possible. I'm not talking here about an environment of harrassment and overt discrimination, but one of not-so-subtle hostility and/or indifference. This is particularly true in science and engineering fields. If she has a particularly savvy coping style then she could well leave you with the impression that she was comfortable with your company all the while hating it. Of course, it may not be a gender thing. It may be how interesting the work is ... what she began to perceive her career trajectory might be ... her opinion of her supervisor... lifestyle and general corporate culture issues ... or ... again ... money. Regardless, I would look at this as a labor market issue (not so much an ethical issue) and I would try to find out why she bolted so fast. In the end, the important question for you is employee recruitment and retention. In the long run, the answer to that question is what's valuable to your company. __________________ What would Brian Boitano do?
Posts: 254

05-02-2005, 09:18 PM	#26
Iowanian Supporter Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Utopia Casino cash: $4698454	maybe the leaving has more to do with her impending marraige and a job her to be hubby has taken somewhere else...............
Posts: 61,545

05-02-2005, 09:23 PM	#30
4th and Long Wheeeeee!!! Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: In a house Casino cash: $9264925	There's a simple fix for this. Make your new employees sign a contract for "X" number of years. We do that with the physicians we hire and include a no compete clause to make sure they aren't working for the competitor during their off hours. __________________
Posts: 19,792