Gore's Contract Against America. ( For Clint ).

[BIG_DADDY]

I found this very distressing because so much of it is true. Your feedback please. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/11/20/95301.shtml

[Clint in Wichita]

Regardless of your stance on Gore/Bush, you've got to see that this article is one of the most idiotic, paranoid pieces of "scare tactic" garbage you'll ever come across. I would just laugh at it, if there weren't so many people that actually but into such crap.

You'd be better off getting your info from the mainstream, "liberal" media.

[bkkcoh]

Clint,

Aren't they the one's who put us in this mess? Didn't they Floriduh for Gore then for Bush? I think if they wouldn't have called it, it wouldn't have been this close.




------------------
Brian K.

The future is much like the present, only longer.

[i]Don Quisenberry </I>

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
I am more than sure that that's were you think everyone should get there information from. But let's take a look at some of these issues one at a time instead of just writing them off. I said that I didn't support all of it so I'll go over what I do support

1.Are you denying that Gore supports homosexuals in the military or gay marriages?.

2. Are you denying that he supports affirmative action?.

3. Are you denying that Gore supports hate crime bills?. Like all assaults and murderer are any less a hate crime?.

[BIG_DADDY]

How about #6, #8, #9, #11, #13, #16, #18, #19, #20 and most importantly #21

[bkkcoh]

So everyone doesn't have to keep checking back with the list

[quote]
1. Homosexuals in the military and homosexual marriage
2. Affirmative Action – it's unconstitutional. The Fairness for Dummies Act
3. Reparations for non-slaves by non-slaveholders
4. Hate crimes laws aimed at straight, white males
5. Racial profiling laws, aimed at straight, white police
6. A U.N. tax or world tax
7. Free prescription drugs not only for the elderly but also for AIDS patients
8. De-legitimizing the Boy Scouts, or The Fairness to Predators Act
9. Outlawing home schooling, or The Freedom From Learning Act
10. Arrest/ban or rewrite the authentic Bible as a hate book
11. Mandatory application of Ritalin to any child with spunk, or The Security for Children Act
12. Complete elimination of borders with Mexico, or The Fairness to Latinos Act
13. Partial-birth abortion and the sale of baby body parts or infanticide, or The Senior Citizen Life Extension Act
14. Increased license for Hollywood's violence and pornography, or The Freedom of Arts Act
15. Socialized medicine and a national health plan, or The Freedom From Bad Behavior Act
16. The No Limits on Lawsuits Act
17. Mandatory Suicide for sick seniors, or The Saving Social Security Act
18. The Fairness in Talk Radio Act, i.e., the end of talk radio
19. The end of the Electoral College and the congressional redistricting of America to insure that never again will the demon-cats be threatened, or The One Dunce, One Vote Act
20. The complete seizing of all guns, or The Freedom From the Second Amendment Act
21. The abolition of our existing Constitution or The Freedom From Freedom Act

[/qoute]



------------------
Brian K.

The future is much like the present, only longer.

[i]Don Quisenberry </I>

[htismaqe]

I got this from CNN...kind of hard to dispute...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>...Gore said he and running mate Joe Lieberman "believe very strongly that every vote has to be counted."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>...Democrats argue that 174 overseas absentee ballots that went to Bush should have been disqualified.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To me, it's only logical to call this hypocrisy. The votes have been counted, Sore-Loserman lost...

------------------
Parker
[b]ChiefsPlanet Administrator</B>

[Iowanian]

Gore is really reminding me of someone....you all know him...the kid that got pissed off when you were young because his team was losing...took his ball and went home...

...but in this case, I wish alsore would just go home and let me sulk because the Greifs are playing like crap...

[BIG_DADDY]

Oh were, oh where has Mr. Wichita gone, oh where, oh where can he B?. http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/confused.gif

[Clint in Wichita]

bkkcoh,

Did you read the article? I'm having a hard time connecting your reply to the link posted by Big Daddy. Here is the list of horrible things that Gore supports:

1. Homosexuals in the military and homosexual marriage

MY GOD, WHAT'S THIS WORLD COMING TO?

2. Affirmative Action – it's unconstitutional. The Fairness for Dummies Act

RACISM ISN'T REAL?

3. Reparations for non-slaves by non-slaveholders

PURE FICTION

4. Hate crimes laws aimed at straight, white males

WHO COMMITS MOST OF THE HATE CRIMES?

5. Racial profiling laws, aimed at straight, white police

MOST COPS ARE WHITE. HOW DO YOU TELL IF A COP IS STRAIGHT?

6. A U.N. tax or world tax

AS IF THE U.N. IS FUNDED NOW SOLELY BY PRIVATE DONATIONS.

7. Free prescription drugs not only for the elderly but also for AIDS patients

HOW HORRIBLE! THOSE PEOPLE SHOULD SIMPLY DIE IF THEY CAN'T AFFORD OUTRAGEOUS DRUG PRICES!

8. De-legitimizing the Boy Scouts, or The Fairness to Predators Act

NOT TRUE, AND WHO CARES?

9. Outlawing home schooling, or The Freedom From Learning Act

I THOUGHT THIS GUY WAS AGAINST DUMMIES EARLIER?

10. Arrest/ban or rewrite the authentic Bible as a hate book

YEAH, RIGHT! WE'D ALL RUSH OUT TO BUY THAT, WOULDN'T WE?

[Clint in Wichita]

11. Mandatory application of Ritalin to any child with spunk, or The Security for Children Act

JUST PLAIN SILLY!!

12. Complete elimination of borders with Mexico, or The Fairness to Latinos Act

O.K....SURE

13. Partial-birth abortion and the sale of baby body parts or infanticide, or The Senior Citizen Life Extension Act

LET'S SAVE ALL THE BABIES...UNTIL THEY BECOME EXPENDABLE SENIOR CITIZENS.

14. Increased license for Hollywood's violence and pornography, or The Freedom of Arts Act

I THOUGHT TIPPER WAS GOING TO CENSOR HOLLYWOOD INTO SUBMISSION?

15. Socialized medicine and a national health plan, or The Freedom From Bad Behavior Act

GEE, HMO'S ARE WORKING SOOOO WELL!

16. The No Limits on Lawsuits Act

COMPETENT JUDGES MIGHT HELP.

17. Mandatory Suicide for sick seniors, or The Saving Social Security Act

HE WANTED TO KILL OFF SENIORS EARLIER...WHAT GIVES?

18. The Fairness in Talk Radio Act, i.e., the end of talk radio

LIKE THIS GUY CARES ABOUT ANY SHOW BESIDES RUSH AND G. GORDON LIDDY!

19. The end of the Electoral College and the congressional redistricting of America to insure that never again will the demon-cats be threatened, or The One Dunce, One Vote Act

IMAGINE LIVING IN A TRUE DEMOCRACY!

20. The complete seizing of all guns, or The Freedom From the Second Amendment Act

EVEN IF HE WANTED TO (WHICH HE DOESN'T), IT'S NOT LIKE CONGRESS WOULD EVER ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN.

21. The abolition of our existing Constitution or The Freedom From Freedom Act

WHY ON EARTH WOULD HE WANT TO DO SUCH A RIDICULOUS THING?

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
Many of your responces are pure sarcasm (nothing new for you), but I will try and address some of the issues anyways.

1. I really don't have that big of a problem with homo's in the military. They should have there own platoon though and go ahead and put them on the front lines since it is so important for them to have equal rights in going to war. Why would they want to get married though when that ritual is christian based and the christian religion does not condone homosexuality?.

[BIG_DADDY]

2. Affirmative action is nothing more than legalized racism so don't try and pull that crap.

4. Hate crimes, Any assault or murderer is a hate crime. What difference does your skin color make?. (Please answer this). They only time they go after prosecuting a hate crime is when it is a white male going after someone of color, not the other way around. So your answer is irrelevant.

6. WE DON'T NEED ANY WORLD TAXATION BODY. WE ALREADY HAVE TOO MANY FREAKING TAXES.

7. I would agree that prescription drugs are high but socializing everything is not the answer. BIG DADDY knows you think so though.

8. Who cares about the boy scouts?. I do. I believe that any group should be able to get together under a common belief without having some numbskull come in and say that their rights were somehow infringed upon. Clint - Would you send your 12yr old boy to camp with a gay scout leader?.

[bkkcoh]

Clint,

Yes I did read the article. I also read some of the articles poking fun about the republicans 'Contract With America'. I know it is generally not a good idea to generalize, but most of the the items mentioned has been mentioned by the liberals in one way or another to be the desired way to live. I however, don't agree with a majority of the things Gore would like to do, but I do realize that there need to some changes made.

This is still the greatest country to live in, but I feel that the majority of the people should take a little more responsiblity for their own actions, this does seem to be contradictory to the liberals point of view.



------------------
Brian K.

The future is much like the present, only longer.

[i]Don Quisenberry </I>

[Archie F. Swin]

If someone told me that this list was drafted by a Klan member, I would believe them.

The better portion of this list is rooted in paranoia. I would like to take this oppertunity to thank BIG DADDY for once again confirming that my choice to kiss the GOP goodbye was a good one. Even though he is a Libertarian . . . he sure sounds like a Rush lovin' GOP type.

------------------
C.R. Pants
(The Resident Liberal)

[bkkcoh]

Clint,

My first response was actually to your response about the media..... :)



------------------
Brian K.

The future is much like the present, only longer.

[i]Don Quisenberry </I>

[Cannibal]

I have been abstaining from these discussions lately.

But after reading through this. I can tell you that this list is Right Wing propoganda.

I can find the exact same type of list with the opposite view points on a number of sites.


Also, please stop using Religion to support your arguements. I could care less about your religion. It has no relevance to any discussion about politics.

[BIG_DADDY]

9. You know that Sore is against privatizing any schools. Anything that takes the freedom to choose away from citizens and gives more power to the goverment Sore is for. You know it and I guess that is why you gave the sarcastic response.

10.As a matter of fact we have a communist radio station here in Berkely that they tried to shut down and Mr. Savage spoke out against that. You know that this issue is real too after Clinton tried attacking these shows after the Oklahoma City Bombing. Not to mention going after militias as well.

11. You write the ritalin issue off as ridiculous but it is far from that. I saw some figures on the % of students on ritalin and it was staggering. BIG DADDY could use some help here.

13. Another sarcastic answer. You are obviously for abortions. nuff said I will admit that this is a very tuff issue.

15. I never said that HMOs were great. Once again your answer is to socialize everything.

<BR>

[BIG_DADDY]

Cannible,
If you are reffering to me I only said that marriage is a christian ritual. I never claimed to even be or back christians so I am not using it to support anything. Why would you want to be a prt of a Muslim ritual if you were not muslim?. What is the freaking difference?.

[bkkcoh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>
11. You write the ritalin issue off as ridiculous but it is far from that. I saw some figures on the % of students on ritalin and it was staggering. BIG DADDY could use some help here.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can attest to this one personally. The teacher of one of our kids wanted us to put him on ritalin because he wasn't listening, he was difficult. This is total BS. She just wanted an easy student to teach, she didn't know how to handle him and therefore there must have been something wrong with him and needs to be drugged up for her to be able to control him. All of his other teachers haven't had a problem at all with him.



------------------
Brian K.

The future is much like the present, only longer.

[i]Don Quisenberry </I>

[Cannibal]

Marriage is not just a "Christian" ritual. Almost all religions have some sort of marriage ritual. <P>

[BIG_DADDY]

16. On the no limits to lawsuites. There just continue to be more laws without ever losing the old ones. I personally think the juditial branch of our goverment is getting way out of control.

19. I think we have worn out this electoral college issue. I am for the electoral college. nuff said

20 & 21. Never has our country seen such an assault on our constitution. During the debates Sore said that he wasn't for taking rifles away from hunters. This coming from a guy who said that that he feels that our constitution does not insure the rights of citizens to own guns. All you have to do here is read between the lines here. It doesn't matter if congress will not pass it. It simply shows that Mr. Sore has no intentions of following our constitution whatsoever. This is the mayjor reason I cannot stand Sore.

[Clint in Wichita]

I'm pretty sure that the link was simply a humorous site along the lines of www.theonion.com. (http://www.theonion.com.) At least that's what I'm hoping.

If it's not a joke, the author is a stomach-churning bigot, as is anyone that feels that way about minorities, gays, etc.

[BIG_DADDY]

Cannible,
Lets get down to the meat and potatoes of the issue. The only reason that they want to get married is to have their health benfits fall on general society when we all know that they are much higher risk. If I jump out of planes my insurance premiums goes up but if your a butt pirate and are much higher risk to charge them more would be considered prejudice. All of our premiums go up when to support a high risk group. Would you deny this?.

[Clint in Wichita]

Where is it written that gays can't be Christians? Even if the Bible says they're sinners, they can still be Christians, as can people who have committed brutal acts of murder, etc.

[Clint in Wichita]

If you're worried about insurance premiums, why not start by getting rid of coverage for the very old & very young? If a gay person works and pays taxes, what do you care if they get the same benefits as other married couples?

Has it ever occurred to you that gays might get married for the same reason as straight people?

[Archie F. Swin]

Why are gay men and women a high risk group? And how may I reference that info?<BR>

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
You barely addressed anything. Hate crimes are crap. Affirmative action is crap. Anything that takes choices away from the citizens of this country is and gives the power to goverment is crap. These are the only issues I have addressed along the racist lines. I said that I did not agree with everything in this article I DON'T. But you seem to address me in such a manner as to assume that I do, when you know da*n well I don't. I have addressed all of the issues that I agree with, why don't you address me in this manner?. Your argument is weak at best.

[Cannibal]

BIG DADDY,

If you wish to exclude Gays from marriage, should we exclude you from society because you can't write a sentence without butchering the English language?

Should be discriminate against morons like you who can't even write?


No we shouldn't. Even homophobic morons have the right to voice their opinions, this is a free country after all.

[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Clint in Wichita]

I disagree with every aspect of the link you posted. Not only do I think it's all either greatly exaggerated or completely untrue, I also think that the viewpoint of the author is that of a racist, paranoid idiot. Not you necessarily, but the author.

[BIG_DADDY]

Pants,
Are you saying that gay men do not have a substantially higher rate of acquireing aids than do straight males?. Can you think of anything more costly than keeping an aids patient alive?.

Clint,
Old people pay higher premiums than do young peopl. I am not saying that they should be denied insurance, only that it should cost more. Why would you want to be a christian when they say they you are living in sin?.<P>

[Cannibal]

BIG_HOMOPHOB_DADDY,

Smokers cost more healthcare money than all other illness combined. Including aids.

What do you intend to do with people who smoke?

[Mi_chief_fan]

LOL @ Cannibal.(Post # 28)

For once, I have to agree with both Clint & Cannibal. This author doesn't need ritalin, he needs prozac.

[Mi_chief_fan]

LOL @ 31<BR>

[BIG_DADDY]

Cannibal,
As usual everyone else resorts to name calling. If I wasn't being attacked from all angles I wouldn't have to type so fast and yes I am not a very good typist if it makes you feel any better. Call me all the names you want if it makes you feel better.<P>

[Mi_chief_fan]

He did bring up an interesting point, BD.
Should people who smoke pay a higher premium or be denied coverage?

[Iowanian]

cannibal,

actually, CANCER takes care of most of that...and I don't like paying the higher ins premiums to take up the slack for that either....and I've had several family members croak from exactly that..

[Clint in Wichita]

What's more expensive than keeping AIDS patients alive?

People with cancer. Let 'em die.

Kids. They generally get sick more than adults, and those bastards don't even pay taxes!! http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[Cannibal]

BIG DADDY,

Please address the issues brought up in # 31.


Sorry about the name calling. But you did the same to homosexuals when you addressed them as "butpirates".

If you can offend an entire segment of society, I am sure you can handle someone questioning your ability to write above the 4th grade level.

[BIG_DADDY]

Cannibal,
Last time I checked older people and smokers pay higher premiums. Has this changed?. Try charging more to someone for being gay. If smokers are not paying their fair share then they should.

BIG DADDY
Just wants people to be held accountable for their actions.

[Archie F. Swin]

So . . .DADDY . . . let's say I choose to smoke cigarettes . . . the insurance companies know I have a much higher chance of cancer . . . should I be denied health coverage?

Plus, if a gay man or woman wanted to get married for health benefits . . . where is the risk? I've known marriage to be a suggestion of monogamy. AIDS, if transmited by sexual contact, is usually done so though promiscuous(sp?) sex. Isn't there Some Equal Oppertunity clause that states you cant base someones employment/benefits on sexual orientation?


------------------
C.R. Pants
(The Resident Liberal)

[Mi_chief_fan]

Clint & Cannibal,
I bet your both a riot at parties.

[Baby Lee]

BIG-DADDY - Have you learned nothing yet? You read something with which the 'intelligensia' didn't agree and [gasp] found a kernel or two with which you could agree. That makes you fair game for all manner of name-calling and labelling. As will I be for not calling you an a$$ho!e.

Although the "butt pirates" remark did kinda invite it.

[This message has been edited by JC-Johnny (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Clint in Wichita]

The reason that insurance premiums are so high isn't all of the "butt pirates" that catch AIDS.

How many hospitals go out of business? Large insurance companies? What do surgeons make? Family practitioners? Anesthetists (sp)? How much profit does the insurance industry as a whole make each year?

It's your straight, white, "pillars of society" that are having anal sex...with you, me, and anyone else that pays insurance premiums.

[Cannibal]

Smokers have driven the rates up for everyone, not just the smoker.

Smoking causes much more than just lung cancer. It can cause cancer of the brain, mouth and throat. It also causes heart disease which is the single biggest killer in this country.

I would think this would offend you, just like the homosexuals do.

[Cannibal]

Mi_chief_fan,


Thanks for the compliment.


<P>

[Baby Lee]

Clint - LOL, the image of the "pillars of society" inserted rectally into the common man won't soon pass.

[BIG_DADDY]

I know that nobody is going to believe me but I could care less if anybody is gay. Sometimes I push it over the edge because I get a little pissed at some of the issues surrounding the gay agenda. Boy scouts is a great example along with insurance premiums. I see alot of things that you don't since I live just outside SF.
The catholics wanted to have a easter parade and the gays invaded it and and scared everyone to the point that they had to stop the parade. They are militant out here and you simply do not see these things. If gays want to go fight wars then who am I to stop them. If they want to get married, who am I to stop them. A majority of these weddings are done in christian churches out here and I just didn't understand why someone would want to be united under a preacher from a religion that condemns what they hold sacred, their relationship.

[BIG_DADDY]

Cannibal,
I believe I just stated that if they are not paying their fair share that they should. Yes I am just as offended.

[This message has been edited by BIG_DADDY (edited 11-27-2000).]

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,Cannibal,
You never addressed any of these issues I asked you to back when I listed the things that I DID agree with in this article like would you send your 12yr. old son to camp with a gay scout leader?. Well?. There were also about 16 other topics I listed there, how come you are so angry about this one issue?. You are not addressing any of the other issues.

BIG DADDY
Is sorry if he offended you guys if you are on the other side of the fence.

[This message has been edited by BIG_DADDY (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Mi_chief_fan]

As far as your boy scout paranoia, gays don't have sex with children, pedophiles do.

Just explaining the difference...........

BTW, from what i've heard, i'd be more scared of a catholic priest being a pedophile than a scoutmaster.

[BIG_DADDY]

Mi,
So you would send your son there then?.

[Mi_chief_fan]

Absolutely. If they are open about it, and it's not a topic of discussion (the kids don't need to know), I think gays would handle themselves properly.

The problem with you seems to be that you think gays are evil, and out to have sex with you. Now, i've only known a couple in my life, and one of them I consider a friend.

I'm happily married (to a woman) with 2 sons, and I would trust him to watch my kids.

[BIG_DADDY]

Mi,
I do not think that they are evil at all. I would just be more protective. Why would I subject them to additional risk?. I have been demonized for my viewpoint here but I just believe that people have the right to come together as a group with certain beliefs irregardless of what they are without interference from the outside. If I want to have a club that is only for people with green hair then how is someone with purple hair offended?.

[Cannibal]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>BTW, from what i've heard, i'd be more scared of a catholic priest being a pedophile than a scoutmaster.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Very good point.

[Mi_chief_fan]

Interesting, you said you wouldn't subject them to the "additional" risk, insinuating that gays are more likely to be a pedophile.

Something tells me that's not quite right.

I'm not sure how things work in CA, I always thought people out there were strange to begin with.

BTW, i'm pretty sure there are discrimination laws that would let people with purple hair either join or form their own club. http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/smile.gif

[Mi_chief_fan]

BTW, not trying to offend Catholics.

[BIG_DADDY]

Cannibal,
Your missing the entire point. I wouldn't leave my son with a catholic priest either. Everyone has the right to their own beliefe as long as it doesn't infringe on someone elses rights. That is the point. If the boyscouts don't want to have gay leaders they should have that right as much as a gay organization should have the right to not have any straight leaders. You still never answered my questions. It is like pulling teeth with you. You are all demanding when you want your questions answered but you haven't answered sh*t.

BIG DADDY
You are good at calling people names though.

[BIG_DADDY]

Mi,
You guys are sick. I wouldn't send my 14yr old daughter to camp with a male scout leader either. You know what I am saying but you just can't stop trying to make it sound bad at all costs.

BIG DADDY
Is going to assume you guys are Democrats. Now THAT'S EVIL.

[Mi_chief_fan]

BD,
I wouldn't leave my sons with anyone that I don't know, priest, rabbi, scoutleader, etc....

I agree with you on that. A lot of weird people out there.

[BIG_DADDY]

Mi,
On the purple hair thing. The boy scounts don't want gay scout leaders but Sore and his band of losers would try and force them to have gay leaders. That is the point. They can have the gay scouts if they want.

[Mi_chief_fan]

Now whose the one name calling? How am I sick? because I think a gay/lesbian can do just as good of a job as a straight person can?

Just when I was starting to sympathize with you, you go and make a rediculous remark like that.

[Mi_chief_fan]

That's the problem: sexual preference is covered in most every anti-discrimination act. I didn't write the law, but it makes sense.<P>

[Clint in Wichita]

See reply #29. I did respond to the rest of the "article".

Would you let your kid go camping with a black troop leader? After all, he might talk your kid into wearing baggy jeans and using the word "yo" a lot!

[Mi_chief_fan]

Well, Clint has returned, so i'm off to class now. Biology exam tonight.

BD, to be continued........

I don't agree with every thing your saying, but I do respect your opinion. Don't think that I don't.

[Chieffan]

Catholic Priest Bashing?

Real smart guys real smart!

Why don't you think before you type. Clint has bashed God and religion before but you two have found an all new low.

Think before you type. Priest bashing is never a good idea. There are a few who have made terrible decisions, but let's not forget the millions who have dedicated their lives to serving God and all his creatures.

[Lightning Rod]

The insurance companies are selective in the types of things they charge extra for. For example I smoke, I’m an adult I chose to do so. My insurance rates are higher because of this. I have no issue with it. BUT if one were to take a look at the rate of Auto accidents of parents compared to non- parents the moms and dads would have more wrecks. Think about it, people who have screaming children in the back seat are surley more likely to be involved in an accident than someone who does not. I have kids I’m not advocating any raise in my own rates but I have a point. Do you think that Allstate is going to penalize Mommies? Fat chance. They will use statistics as a reason to charge more as long as it is not offensive to too many people.

[This message has been edited by RCGChief (edited 11-27-2000).]

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
You haven't answerd jack. The only thing that your good for is ridiculous metaphores and an occasional convenient smart comment. You do not care about our constitution and are a socialist. All I have to do is look at the 2 issues you did try and address ( drugs and healthcare ) and your answer always has socialist roots. Why don't you just come out and admit it?.

Mi,
I am not calling you a name. I am saying that it is sick the way you guys are twisting what I am saying. You mentioned that was saying that gays were more likely to be a pedophile than a heterosexual. I then said that I wouldn't sent my daughter to scout camp heterosexual male either. In either case there are problems that could occur. Do you believe that people have a right to create clubs that only allow in certain people?. Mens clubs, womens clubs, ect.

[This message has been edited by BIG_DADDY (edited 11-27-2000).]

[WisChief]

#31 - YES - smokers should pay higher insurance premiums than non-smokers (which most already do) Should we let them die? - absolutely not - but should my insurance go up because they are costing the Dr's, Hospitals, ect more to keep them alive? NO!, my insurance should not cost more. The smokers should pay more.

Just my 2 pennies for the day....

------------------
Wade

[BIG_DADDY]

WisChief,
That is the problem. Some people want to be excluded from accountability.

[Cannibal]

Wischief,

You are paying more for insurance because of smokers. You can bet the house on it.

Healthy people don't use the insurance as much as unhealthy people.

The insurance companies pay out tons more money for smoking related illnesses than for anything else.

So where do they get that extra money? They raise everyone's rates, not just the smoker. It's a fact. It's always been that way. It's the same way with car insurance.

[Clint in Wichita]

I'll agree that smokers should pay higher insurance rates when lard asses that eat grease-laden foods and don't exercise are charged more also.

BD, I did respond to you. I disagree with every word of the article. It is all paranoid propaganda. There's no need to get angry just because I don't share your opinions.

[BIG_DADDY]

Cannibal,
I don't get it. Are you for correcting the problems or not?.

[Cannibal]

I don't know if I am for Socialization of healthcare, but I am also dead set against insurance companies. They're more corrupt than the Government and they get away with it.<BR>

[WisChief]

Cannibal - I know that - and it pisses me off. This is one of many problem with Sore-Loserman and his philosophies - this is okay with him. Dammit - I work very hard to stay healthy and stay out of the hospital/doctor's office and if people want to smoke or whatever else and not take care of themselves - than so be it. Just don't pass this on to me and my family in higher health cost. Gore prefers to do this.<P>

[Clint in Wichita]

BTW, this is technically a socialist country, at least partially. All countries are.

I'm no socialist, but even so I take no offense to your assumption.

[BIG_DADDY]

WisChief,
That is the whole problem. If people like cannibal and clint have it there way,there will no reason to try and excell in your life. If they have it their way, I am just going to move to rhe mountains and grow a bunch of weed plants and live off the goverment. Why not, I am sick of this crap.

BIG DADDY
Just feeling disgusted with the whole socialistic scene.

[DanT]

Big Daddy,

RE: your reply #67, pedophilia is a perversion in which children are the preferred sexual object. Unless the scout leader is a child-desiring pervert, then I don't see how it matters whether the leader's sexual orientation is geared toward the gender of his charges. I doubt that openly gay people are more inclined to pedophilia than others.

[Phobia]

I haven't been to a real doctor since I was 17 years old and bit through my tongue rebounding a basketball. If you're counting, that's a dozen years. Why do I have to pay out the *** for healthcare insurance? I'd just like to pay when I use it, just like every other service I pay for.... Before long, insurance companies will concoct some BS about pedestrian insurance. You pay $300 annually and they cover you if you happen to dent someone's car with your knee or step on a little old ladies cat. Your sneakers are also covered under certain conditions.... Insurance companies, lawyers, politicians - that's all what is wrong with america. Somehow I think our forefathers never had this cluster**** in mind when they wrote the constitution nearly 225 years ago.

[Phobia]

I realize I can pay per use currently. However, insurance companies have driven the price of healthcare so damn high, nobody can afford to do that any longer....

[BIG_DADDY]

DanT,
I stated in that post that I wouldn't send my daughter to camp with a male scout leader either. I never inferred that their orientation was more likely to make them a pedophile. However I will let you know that NAMBLA is very big out here. For those of you unfamiliar, that is the North American Man Boy Love Association which boasts tons of members. You are more than welcome to look for yourself. I understand that they have a websight and everything. Just ask Clint, he probably knows where it is at.

[This message has been edited by BIG_DADDY (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Cannibal]

I agree Kphob.

What really chaps my hide is the "detuctable" that the insurance companies nail you with.

It's like OK...

I've paid $3,000 for the last 5 years to keep my medical insurance. By chance I get strep throat and have to go to the doctor. I get stuck with a freaking $300 dollar detuctable for a $50 medical bill even though I've already paid the $3,000 dollars worth of premiums. I haven't even come close to using what I've paid in premiums and never will.

They get you no matter what.

[WisChief]

Big Daddy, #76 I understand what you are saying about Clint and Cannibal and if they truely believe in socializing medicine and other "things" than I do not agree with them. The very thought of this revolts me to no end. I was raised to believe that if I work harder than someone else I will be better off for it. Thus a college degree, thus a high paying job, thus a nice car, nice house, travel, early retirement (hope :D), college money for my son, this computer, ect. ect. I work very hard for my life, my wife's life and my son's life to be good. Now, since Gore and his fellow democrats want me to give that which I work so hard for to others that don't work as hard as I do, this is why I can not and will not support him or the democratic polical views. I call it self responsiblity (not an original - I know)and dammit if you want what I have get it from your fellow democrat - not from me. This is nothing personal towards Clint or any other democrat - it is just my view on this one very important polictical issue. I believe in helping others - but I do it thru my own approved avenues such as my church and the United Way.

[Cannibal]

Wischief,


You are flat wrong about Gore endorsing the current health system.

Gore wants the Gonvernment to provide health care for everyone. Yes we'll all have to pay.

George W. Bush is the one who likes the system the way it is. He's all for big insurance companies, they line his pockets with cash.

[BIG_DADDY]

What amazes me more than anything is that nobody seems to be addressing my biggest concerns when I first posted this topic. It seems everyone is concerned more about the gay agenda. What I am really concerned about is:
1.The expansive power of the Federal Goverment combined with a socialist agenda. It is quite obvious that some people right here preffer that for America.
2. The desimation of our constitution which I feel is foundation of our goverment. In order for us to lose our freedoms they need to destroy the constitution and once again it is quite obvious that some would preffer that. Let's start with Sore and his band of losers.
3. Our freedoms are an issue and in order to keep them we need to make sure that the right to bear arms is protected.
4. That we should be supporting the freedom of choice for every American instead of continueing to have the goverment control what and how each of us are educated and supported.
5. People do have the right to create groups anyway they want to create them without interference. Boy Scouts are a great example. It starts here and leads to more and more contol of the population by the goverment.

Is anybody else concerned about these issues intead of a bunch gay ones?. I know it is hard to support me sometimes as I am not politically correct, but come on.


[This message has been edited by BIG_DADDY (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Cannibal]

The Constitution was written over 200 years ago. Times have changed drastically since then. The forefathers had no idea what kind of society we would have now. That is why they allowed for amendments to the Constitution.

This country and it's people have changed and so will the constitution.

You're just going to have to get used to it, or move to another country.

[Cannibal]

I don't like the government butting it's head in on all issues. But there are some in which they are forced to. <P>

[DanT]

Hey Big Daddy,

I think we just disagree on whether we'd presume that any given adult scout leader is a child-desiring pervert. I'm willing to assume that he or she isn't; you're not. Of course, in real life, we'd both would know more about any particular scout leader and would be able to make a more informed decision.

Since I'm not inclined to think that any given scout leader is a pervert, I'm not willing to prejudge an openly gay scout leader. Your question, after all, was a hypothetical one, so the presumption should be that the scout leader was just like most other scout leaders except for being openly gay.

Also, I doubt that NAMBLA is big anywhere. Any organization that caters to perverts is, by definition, playing to a very tiny fraction of the society. Multiply that by the fact that, presumably, this particular pervert group is confined to one gender (MEN) and you're looking at half of what is already a small number. To be honest with you, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a NAMBLA, except in jokes.

[BIG_DADDY]

WisChief,
I couldn't agree more. I am going to quit worrying about whether I am pi**ing any democrat off though. The way I look at it they are stealing my money and they are not going to get it without a fight. The more they raise taxes the more I will be looking at opening businesses that make a majority of their money under the table. If the game changes then so will I but I refuse to a support a bunch of lazy sheeple. Let them support themselves. I am a lion and I refuse to eat and sleep with sheep. Look at cannibal over there wanting to socialize healthcare. GREAT So I am in great shape and take care of myself and have to pay to take care of bunch of fat sheep that got fat on my food stamps. F*ck that. Or support a bunch some smokers or homos that couldn't put a rubber on BS. It is time people are held accountable and we quit worrying about offending these clowns. Yea I am sure that hte goverment will do a great job, look what they have done to social insecurity?. Wonderful

[svuba]

Dan T

How exactly is Inserting your Penis into another mans butthole not being a Pervert?<BR>

[KCWolfman]

Dan - While I dont disagree with you that every adult who wants to help children is not a pervert, I believe the that the Boy Scouts of America are allowed to uphold their beliefs in what is moral and just. The Boy Scouts of America believe that homosexuality is immoral; therefore, they have the right not to allow homosexuals in their troops.

To force them to have homosexuals as leaders is to legislate morality to them... something that is abhorent to every free thinking individual.

[Cannibal]

O.K. Archie Bunker... oops, I meant "BIG DADDY",

you can calm down and stop with the generalizations. It only makes you look foolish.

If you hate this country so much, just move. <P>

[BIG_DADDY]

DanT,
You can doubt all you want but if you use your search engine you will find out that it is not only real but actually boasts 10s of 1000s of members nationwide. They are in the SF Chronical all of the time.

[BIG_DADDY]

Cannibal,
You move. It is people like you that are destroying this country. There you go again with one of your gereralized statments. If there is some thing I have said wrong then attack the issue instead of the person. But that would actually take some effort. I am not going to leave and if people like you persist, I will find plenty of money under the table.

BIG DADDY
Politically Incorrect and proud of it.

[KCWolfman]

Cannibal states - "You are flat wrong about Gore endorsing the current health system.

Gore wants the Gonvernment to provide health care for everyone. Yes we'll all have to pay."

and he is right, Unfortunately, some of us will pay more than others......

[Cannibal]

I haven't generalized anything.

I just have an open mind and try to look at the issues on all sides. Something that you and people like you have never been able to do because you're afraid of change.

You're afraid that your little white illiterate world is going to come crashing down around you and it scares you.


Lion my *** ... gawd!<BR>

[BIG_DADDY]

Cannibal,
See sides from all angles my a*s. So now instead of having to pay extra for the fat a*sses, smokers and butt pirates of the world I can support 10 peoples health care because I make more money. Oh that's fair. Give me a freaking break.

[This message has been edited by BIG_DADDY (edited 11-27-2000).]

[BIG_DADDY]

Cannibal,
Yes you make a vague general statement about me intead of addressing what I have just said. If I went back I wonder how many names you have called me on this one post alone. At least 5. Weak, very very weak.

BIG DADDY
Is beside himself

[DanT]

Big Daddy,

I just searched yahoo.com and aclu.org for NAMBLA. It looks like they're real. I doubt they have many members, though. The links I saw make them sound small and insignificant.

[Clint in Wichita]

BD,

You seem to think that you will pay less in taxes if/when Bush takes office. Is that the case?

[Cannibal]

We'll all have to pay.

That's just the way it is.

Yes some will have to pay more than others and I agree that that is not fair.

But it's also not fair that there are some people in this country with illnesses that don't allow them to work like you and I. They did not ask to be in their current situation. And I am sure that if they had a choice they would like to work and be productive. Do you hear them on this board crying their eyes out like you are? I think not.

Even if you do pay a higher percentage of your money, it's still better than every other country in the world.

Please feel free to move to a deserted island so you can get away from all those "Butt Pirates" that you're so "afraid" of.

[Clint in Wichita]

BD,

I haven't called you any names on this entire thread. Why the NAMBLA comment?

Your overly-defensive responses reveal a lack of faith in your own opinions.

[This message has been edited by Clint in Wichita (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Clint in Wichita]

Those that fear homosexuals the most are also the most likely to harbor deep-seeded feelings towards members of the same sex.

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
Good question. Yes I think I will pay less but it will be very insignificant. The main reason I don't like Gore is he will destroy our constitution. I voted for Harry Browne.

Cannibal,
I don't know how many times I have to say this but I am not afraid of homo's. I have nothing against them exept when they want me to pay for their high risk insurance and want to invade private organizations. Quit telling me to leave too. There are alot more people like me out there and they are not going away. I will always adjust to the system.

[DanT]

svuba,

What exactly is perverted about it? If two adult men consent to get off like that, where's the harm to society? I'm not one to see perversions in how adults (i.e. sexually mature humans) interact with each other sexually. So long as its consensual, no one's cheating on anyone else and no one's forced to watch against their will, they can have at it any way they like, as far as I'm concerned.

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
It is possible that I somehow got you mixed up with the big time name caller Cannibal. If so I apologize.

BIG DADDY
Gets defensive when he is called too many names.

[Clint in Wichita]

I will bet you anything...ANYTHING that Gore will not destroy the Constitution if he somehow gets into office.

I'll bet if you think real hard you can probably remember saying the same thing before Clinton was elected.

Let's say for a minute that you're right, and Al "Dr. Evil" Gore was elected and actually set out to destroy the Constitution. How exactly would he accomplish this without the cooperation of Democrats and Republicans alike?

It's impossible. He's more likely to sprout wings and fly away.

[Cannibal]

Gore "destroying" the constitution is pure Right Wing propoganda. It's horesh!t. I really can't believe how some people have bought into it hook, line and sinker. Because as Clint said, it is impossible.

You just can't satisfy these Right Wingers! Dubya won the Electoral College and will be the next president, yet their still bitching!

Simply amazing...

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
The biggest assault on the constitution has taken place in our right to bear arms. They try to pretend that reason to have guns was so people could feed there familys back the old days when they know da*m well it was secure a free state. When that didn't work they tried to destroy the gun manufactuers with lawsuites. Now you have Sore saying that the right to keep and bear arms is not secured by our constitution. Bush did a horrible job of pulling his covers on this issue during the debates. He did say in the debates that he had no problem with hunters having guns. Just read between the lines here. He does have a problem with people having guns to secure a free state. If he will go after this he will go after anything.
It doesn't matter if he can get this passed. The fact that he would try shows what a scumbag this guy is. From money at the monestary to flip flopping on the tobacco issue even after his sister died on it, to all of the scandals of this administration. He is a scumbag pure and simple. They are already starting to attack our right to free speech as well. I cannot stand Sore.

[BIG_DADDY]

Cannibal,
I have got to get out of here until tomorrow but if you can't see the assault on our constitution I don't know what else to say. You must look at the world through rose colored glasses. I honestly think no matter what someone shows you you'll continue to try and sell you BS.

[Cannibal]

http://www.msnusers.com/Laurasneetostuff/files/Goofy%20Stuff%2Fcrackheadgwbush%2Ejpg

[KCWolfman]

http://www.ucalgary.ca/~pscassoc/images/weekly/clinton03.jpg

[DanT]

I'm a proud ACLU member and I can tell you that it's not just right-wing propaganda that Clinton was big on attacking the Constitution. Here's an ACLU link to an 15April1996 article entitled "Clinton: Anti- Civil Libertarian" summarizing some of the views of NY Times columnist Anthony Lewis (author of Gideon's Trumpet):
http://www.aclu.org/news/15aprarc.html

Here's an ACLU link to a January, 1999, article about well-known civil libertarian Nat Hentoff's views on Clinton's "Serial Violation" of Civil Liberties:
http://www.aclu.org/news/1999/w010299a.html

Clinton pandered to the worst fears in a lot of people and was always ready to sacrifice rights for a false sense of security.

[Cannibal]

What did Clinton get passed through Congress that actually affected the Constitution?

[DanT]

Off the top of my head, the Communication Decency Act. Luckily, the Supreme Court struck that sh!t down.

He also was big on so-called Anti-terrorism bills. I think he got a couple of those through Congress. He was always willing to eke away at habeas corpus rights and was never reluctant to stick some threat to it in his crime bills.

[This message has been edited by DanT (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Cannibal]

Hardly sound like "destroying" the constitution to me. <P>

[Logical]

Cannibal,

First I would hope you are not going to call me a white illiterate. Second study how bad Canada's health care has become. Right now anyone who can afford to is crossing the border to seek medical care in the US. Insurance schemes are in the process of being created so those who cannot afford to pay both their Canadian taxes and US medical costs can use the insurance to get health care in the US. Gee, now why would I not want a similar system in the US.

Second I have spent over 40,000 obtaining my Bachelors and Masters so I am able to earn a 6 figure income for myself and family. Now why is it selfish to not want to support all of the freeloaders in US society, especially more than we already do in higher health care costs.

Cannibal, it is you who is not using your ability to do research and think things through.

[Logical]

So is putting the world ahead of the US a position Cannibal and Clint support. In his environmental stands (well documented) he has stated that the US must endure the consequence to a greater degree than the rest of the world because we can afford to do so. Gee that is sure what I find under the oath of office for the President. World first US pay for it, because we can better afford the costs.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[Cannibal]

That's the point, our health care is the best in the world...

TO THOSE THAT CAN AFFORD IT!

[Cannibal]

What do you people want to do these people who are not able to work?

Should we do what the Roman's did?

[Cannibal]

Should we do what the Nazi's did?

I'm tired of hearing whining about how you don't want to pay for a bunch of freeloaders.

We know that, we only read it every day on this BB.

Let's hear your solutions to the problem.

[DanT]

Cannibal,

Anyone who would attack centuries-old habeas corpus rights when crime rates are declining is not to be trusted with the Constitution. There are folks on the left and the right who can see that.

You may think that it's only right-wing propaganda that Clinton tried to "destroy" the Constitution. I'm trying to tell you that it's not just right-wingers who feel that he was a piss-poor protector of our Constitution, something he was sworn to uphold. I'm not a right-winger and I damn sure feel that way about Clinton.

[Logical]

I worked hard so that I can afford it so you want to bring me down, and all those who take the trouble to have insurance.

So that about wraps up your position Cannibal. So sweet and simple, oh and did I forget to mention stupid. Let's see the Canadian, English, and several other countries have the people who can afford to avoid the disaster that their own medical system provides, come here. If you and Gore and the other simpletons who would destroy our system get your way, then where do we go?

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[Cannibal]

Dan T,

I definitely don't agree with censorship or invading our privacy.

However, there have been many amendments to the constitution and there will be many more.

That is the product of a changing society.

Much of the Constitution has or will become outdated.

To act like the document is a sacred cow just doesn't fly. We aren't living in the 1700's anymore. <P>

[Logical]

Cannibal,

Frankly those that do not work will do as they always have, rely on the system to give them care that the rest of us pay for with higher costs and insurance premiums. I much prefer the private sectors handling of the matter, to any government solution.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[Cannibal]

Lets hear some answers "Logical".

No more whining!

Want do you want to do with the mentally and physically handicapped that require assistance?

Do you want to just kill them all. Do you want to help them? Do you want to deport them to a deserted island?

If you refuse to pay taxes for them, what's your solution?

[TEX]

Switching gears a bit. I just heard on the local news here in Houston that Bush will chose HISD Superintendent Dr. Rod Paige as his Secratary of Education. ROTFLMAO over this one!!!! Now wasn't Bush going to "improve " education? I advise all those that voted for the guy to look up the track record of the Houston Indipendent School District - especially under Dr. Paige. Look a bit farther nad see what has happened to HISD with Govener Bush in office. It has started and I'm going to have a fun for the next 4 years! This is really funny and UNBELIEVABLE!!! If any of you know what kind of shape HISD is in, then you know where I'm coming from.

[Logical]

Oh and if that is hard, then so be it. They can work their *** off like I did to pay for my education and then while working to make good for myself, or they can suffer. That is how our system is set up, and what I want to see maintained.

I worked 80 hours a week with a family of four/five while attending school full time to obtain my Bachelors, then worked 60-70 hours a week until I made management, then I worked 50 to 60 hours a week while going full time for my Masters. Others should try hard work, it does wonders for creating success. By the way I got no money from my lower middle class family.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[Cannibal]

"Logical"

It's not very "Logical" to think that a person with serious mental or physical retardation can get a Masters Degree and work in society.

I know there are people that abuse this system. But there are hundreds of thousands that require legitimate assistance and cannot work, period.

I want to know what you intend to do with them?



[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Logical]

I want to do nothing more for the mentally handicapped than is now offered. (Tough Policy but I believe in it)

Physically handicapped, guess what I qualify, I have a handicapped sticker because my left ankle is totally destroyed it is fused with no movement. I have had my right big toe amputated, and I have a four inch inoperable tumor growing in the muscle above my right knee. I went back to work in 1977 four weeks after they fused that ankle. I worked at least 70 hours a week standing on it running a Church's Fried Chicken in a cast that went above my knee. The job required me to stand all the time, but you know what I would have lost my insurance had I not done that. I work and have worked with paraplegic and quadriplegics. They were not lazy and got training, so do not tell me it cannot be done. Guess what different states Missouri, Kansas, and California paid for that training.

I will continue to answer your questions in my next post.

[DanT]

I'm in favor of nationalizing the health care system. Based on how efficient our government has been with Medicare dollars and how efficient Canada and Europe have been (in terms of buying medical care and not administrative overhead), I consider it a very, very strong possibility that a nationalized health care system in the USA would give us way better results at much less cost. Right now, there are gobs of countries whose citizens live longer lives with less disability, yet no one touches us when it comes to the amount spent on health care.

[Logical]

The only people who cannot work are those who are too lazy too work. Your statement is a crock. And I guess my last post points out that a physically handicapped person can get both a Bachelors and a Masters. One of the people I went to school with was a quadraplegic getting his doctorate while working for a local engineering company. So obviously I am not a single example. Why do you buy into the crap of lazy people?

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[Cannibal]

You said in an earlier post that you are tired of paying for freeloaders.

That indicated to me that you wanted to do away w/ any assistance these people are currently receiving.

But now you say you want to continue giving the "freeloaders" the assistance they currently receive.

Which is it?

Do you want to leave them high and dry, or do you want to continue paying their way?

[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Logical]

So put simply, they need to work harder and use the state and federal benefits available for the handicapped. My friends daughter has severe dyslexia and minor retardation and will finish her Bachelors this year and will be going on for her Masters. Have you ever heard of Hellen Keller, gee blind, deaf and still got a Bachelors degree and went on to be famous for teaching, starting an Institute for the Disabled and lecturing on motivation.

[Cannibal]

My mother and older brother happen to have Schizophrenia and I know for a fact, without a doubt that they cannot function in normal society at a job.

They do require assistance and they are currently receiving it. It's meager, but they do get by with some help by me.

Don't sit there on your high horse act like it's not possible. Your attitude is insulting and repulsive.


[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Logical]

Cannibal,

I did not say I was tired of paying for freeloaders in post 124 I said and I quote

"Frankly those that do not work will do as they always have, rely on the system to give them care that the rest of us pay for with higher costs and insurance premiums. I much prefer the private sectors handling of the matter, to any government solution."

The only other statement I made was and againg I quote

"The only people who cannot work are those who are too lazy too work."

Do not play Denise and go for the "Big Lie", I do my research and I am always willing to look it up. If you can find the statement post the thread number so all can see. I will then defend my statement, I am sure I said no such thing, so prove me wrong.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[Cannibal]

From # 116

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>Now why is it selfish to not want to support all of the freeloaders in US society, especially more than we already do in higher health care costs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Logical]

Cannibal

Odd you should mention Schizophrenia (by the way a mental disorder not physical), my Lead Engineers husband (female lead) has the same problem, obtained a bachelors degree and works from home running his own software business. Could he work at our company probably not, so he solved the problem by finding a way too work from home. I also said that mentally handicapped should be dealt with by the system as they are currently, I even said in parens (Tough Policy, but I believe in it). So nice try, Cannibal.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[Logical]

Reread your quoted statement, it did not say I was unwilling to continue to support freeloaders, just that I was unwilling to do so to a greater extent than the current system already does. So your statement was incorrect when you put words into my mouth.

[Cannibal]

Don't even try to act like you know how severe certian memembers of my family's illness is.

Your argument is a joke and not "Logical" at all.

There are many people with worse cases than my family and they can't work either.



[This message has been edited by Cannibal (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Cannibal]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>(by the way a mental disorder not physical)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for clearing that up for me BTW.

I've only mentioned mental and physical throughout this this thread.

[Logical]

I did not say my position for mentally handicapped was founded in logic, you assume from my username that everything I say will be logical. So should I assume you eat the flesh of other humans from your username.

In general I follow the precepts of logic and the nickname was basically tagged on me by the queen in a sarcastic response. I liked it so much I changed from jerey to Logical and have used it every since. I believe my position is a tough one, but charity and the government assistance is where we should remain on this issue. You are the one who asked me my position (not whining). Well I have not and will not whine, in fact it appears to me you are whining over my clear and unambiguous stance.

My favorite saying is life is a bit_ch and then you die. Sorry if that bothers you.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[Cannibal]

Welfare and Medicare are necessary evils whether you like it or not.

There are people that truly need the assistance whether you like it or not.

The programs will continue, [as they should], like it or not.

In a perfect world, we could use charity for less fortunate individuals, but selfish, self-centered aholes like yourself would not support them, so we are forced to pay for all programs by the government.

[Logical]

And Cannibal,

I made my position known on mental disability very early in post 129, so since you chose to ignore it I felt the need to remind you.

[Cannibal]

End of discussion.

[Logical]

Cannibal,

You may not know this but prior to FDR our country had no welfare (government sponsored) at all. Medicare did not exist in this country until the late 60s. So no it is not a fact of life, just one that we have grown accustomed to in the US, especially since LBJ made it a huge monstrosity that too many people came to feel was a right not a benefit. You see benefits can be taken away.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[Logical]

Wise choice Cannibal,

You stood no chance. Oh and by the way the biggest percentage of all Charity comes from those making 6 figures or more, (I do participate, and thanks for calling me rich, I am not really but I am quite comfortable, but I worked my a**hole off to be where I am). Bill Gates contributed more than probably all of the lower middle class combined last year, with contributions in excess of a quarter of a billion dollars.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[This message has been edited by Logical (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Cannibal]

Post # 142 says it all.

There is no need for further discussion on the matter.<P>

[Logical]

No Cannibal,

That post only points out where government reforms need to be concentrated. Are you sure we should not just call you the Queen's Prince, since you believe you can use the Big Lie, and your point is the final one if you say it is. Childish and immature is how I would label that tactic.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[Cannibal]

Tell you what, if I'm Denise's "Prince"...

I guess that makes you Luzap's "Queen".

[Logical]

Luzap and I have completely different styles, in case you have not noticed. I was pointing out that you were using the Queen's shabby practices. I was also politically correct enough not to impugn your sexuality and cast homophobic double entendre. You should try the high road, as it would give your positions more character and credibility!

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[This message has been edited by Logical (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Cannibal]

Actually, you and your "King" Luz agree on many political topics.<P>

[DanT]

Speaking of Bill Gates, here's an article on Welfare from Microsoft's Encarta. The government-sponsored welfare in America prior to FDR was largely geared to women with children:
http://encarta.msn.com/find/concise.asp?ti=761575466&sid=5#s5

http://www.schizophrenia.com is a good site for anyone interested in learning more about schizophrenia. It was started by a guy whose brother had it before he passed away. There are many hard-working folks who get nailed by that disease in their prime. Not all of them can resume their productive lives but, fortunately, many can.<BR>

[WisChief]

Cannibal and all other fellow BB members who are democrats:

I trust that I have not personally offended anyone through personal attacks or insults. I very much attempt to stick with issues not people.

Now on to my attempt to save the world. :D

Welfare and social issues can be worked out by not taking more money from people who earn more. Here in Wisconsin there is the "welfare to work" program. I believe you can recieve welfare for 6 years and then it stops. A person MUST get a job or go to school. Gov Thompson flatly said 'enough is enough. You want my states money? Prove to me why you should have it." Amazing things happen - people get jobs when they can't have anymore free money. BTW - Tommy Thompson is praised by both Repubs and Dems for his welfare reform - because it works.

Now, extremely physically and mentally handicapped persons can and do work in society. A program here in Wisconsin Rapids called "Occupational Development Corporation" or ODC is a privately funded organization that employees - yes gives people a job - persons with severe physical and mental limitations. They perform various functions, from packing boxes for UPS, applying mailing labels for the USPS and doing various jobs for the company I work for. These wonderful people are rewarded monitarily, emotionally and physically for performing a needed function in my community. This program is privately funded through donations from companies like mine and many others (you know, the mean wicked rich companies that don't care)and from private individuals like me.

We need govt. It serves many useful functions, but I do not believe that they should take my money to do with what they want when I can give it away just fine. I mentioned in another post that I am not cold to societies needs, I help out in my own way, not in ways the govt. tells me too.



------------------
Wade

[Logical]

WiscChief.

All excellent points, and I admire the reform that Wisconsin implemented. It is a good start.

Cannibal,

Actually your and Denise's views are not all that close, it is your and her tactics I was referring to in my post. Perhaps you do not know the difference between tactics and views?

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[revolver808]

WisChief-

I appreciate your concerted effort to bring civility to political discourse on this board. It is sorely needed.

As for the welfare issue, as a Democrat I too support limits on the amount of time a person can receive welfare checks, IF they are an able bodied person with NO dependents. I believe welfare should serve as a temporary safety net and not as a permanent way of life.

I often compare the issue of welfare in our nations to that of giving tithes in a church community. Would we not expect those who are more fortunate to give a larger percentage of their income to those who are less well-off?? It is simply difficult for me to shed a tear for the wealthiest individuals in our nation, when I see so many families living in poverty.

Mark

[WisChief]

Mark, I honestly do not believe that the wealthiest people want you to "shed a tear". They just do not want to pay more because people are lazy and think it is owed them because they are rich.

Someone earlier mentioned that Gates donated $250 billion to charity above and beyond his taxes. Isn't that enough? Or should he and other like him pay more simply because of their good fortune and hard work? Legally he doesn't have to give a damn penny away and I'm sure he wonders why he does when people still attack his success. Sure, he reaped other $$ benefits from giving it away, but $250 BILLION???

People that have a bachelor's degree will earn more money than people who don't go to school. Why don't more go to school and work for what others have instead of expecting it to be given to them?

I honestly believe that ANYONE can have a better life if they want it.



------------------
Wade

[WisChief]

Also, the dependent issue is more the reason to find good honest work or school/training and end the welfare cycle. Kids must not be raised to believe that it comes free!

[revolver808]

WisChief-

I guess that illustrates a fundamental difference between my beliefs and yours. I do feel that there are many people working their asses off in America today, probably working just as hard as Bill Gates, who are barely making ends meet and are just one pink slip or paycheck away from poverty. Mr. Gates may indeed be more brilliant, and he certainly came along at just the right time, but it would appall me if he DIDN'T feel a huge sense of responsibility to the rest of America and to the world.

Mark

[revolver808]

You also raise the issue of kids. For the sake of argument, let's concede that every adult on welfare is "lazy." I agree that kids must be raised with the understanding that they are responsible for themselves. However, what is your solution to the many children who depend on welfare and WIC to put food on their tables?? Are they high and dry simply because they had the misfortune of being born to "lazy" parents?

Mark

[Brock]

I think Harry Truman said it best: "If you want to live like a republican, vote democrat.

[WisChief]

Mark, notice when I said that I will attempt to save the world I inserted the :D simply to imply that I don't have all the answers (surprise, surprise).

I know that WIC is a very good thing. I once dated a lady that did indeed depend on it to put food on her daughter's plate.

People that have kids and do not work because of the kids are very confused people. They must work in these situations. I know - child care is expensive (I have a son), but the attempt must be made. Too many people simply do not want to work. There are people in my church that help out with this issue right here in our town. Limited child care for no or very little money so mothers can work.

It takes very much creativity and very much self responsiblity and limited govt intervention to make this work. I see it happen right here in Wisconsin.

------------------
Wade

[revolver808]

Wade-

Agreed on a few points. As I said before, personal responsibility is important, and for chrissakes, regarding children, if you don't have the means to support them, be responsible in your lifestyle choices. However, I think it is important to remember that the children born to irresponsible parents have made no choice of any kind. They are simply stuck between a rock and a hard place, and if we don't help them, experience has taught us that big business will not.

Also, as I said before, it is important to remember that many people who are on welfare are not lazy and irresponsible. Perhaps they have made mistakes, but they have often worked very hard and are often either untalented, disabled, unlucky, or any combination thereabove.

Mark

[This message has been edited by revolver808 (edited 11-27-2000).]

[Clint in Wichita]

Someone please inform me:

1) What percent of your tax dollars goes towards "handouts" like welfare or food stamps?

2) What percent goes towards the U.S. War Machine?

3) What percent is simply wasted?

My guess is that you should stop freaking out about #1 and worry a little more about #2 and #3.

[Mi_chief_fan]

WisChief,
We've also had a very successful welfare to work program here in Michigan. The 2 programs are almost identical. Gov. Engler wanted to pass a measure for manditory drug testing of welfare recipients (which I happen to agree with) and the state supreme court shot it down.

Speaking of welfare, the state of Michigan over the past ten years has given GM over $1 billion in tax cuts, this after they closed down their factories in Flint, putting nearly 25,000 people out of work, and heading to Mexico.

Michael Moore said it right when he coined the term "corporate welfare".In one of his films, he interviewed Phil Knight (Nike CEO) and asked if he would consider building a plant in Flint. His typical right-wing respose: "Americans don't want jobs making shoes." Bulls**t. He knows he can make them for about $.50 a pair in Indonesia, and sell for about $150 in the U.S.

That, my friends, is why we'll always have welfare, in one form or another.

<BR>

[Cannibal]

I'm glad to see that there are a few individuals on this board that have the balls to admit that they do have some semblence of compassion without the fear of not being considered "macho" just because they think that some people might actually need assistance.

I never said the system doesn't need reform either. I know there are people who abuse the system. The system should be more strict.

However, there are people on this board that act like it should be abolished all together and that just isn't possible any longer with the population of this country.

[bkkcoh]

I think if the government would just get rid of the fruad in what it spends, there wouldn't be a need to worry about any spending issues.



------------------
Brian K.

The future is much like the present, only longer.

[i]Don Quisenberry </I>

[BIG_DADDY]

Cannibal, Brock,

What you don't get is that we can't afford to live like a demorat. I am in the Silicon Valley and I work with the super rich ( many who are demorats ) and I can assure you that they pay a lower percentage on taxes than many of you. 30%. The more we become socialist, the more the more we eliminate the middle class, not the upper class. Just look at Europe to confirm this. If you think that you are going to tax the REAL upper class like that then you watch our goverment switch to the far right REAL quick.

[WisChief]

Let's all take a step back and realize what is going on here. There seems to be a belief that Republicans are cold hearted - don't give a hell about anything but MY money - get the *uck outa my face - people and that Democrats are these perfect, loving people that will give his own kid's kidney for the street corner drunk. BULL****!!!

Obviously there are extremes on both sides of the isle, but the vast majority of Repubs and the vast majority of Dems want what is best, we just differ on how to do it. I personally think that we should all take more responsiblity for our success or lack there of. I do NOT believe in letting some poor sap freeze to death in his/her own house because they worked at GM and lost their job. Just let me take firewood and blankets to them and food to their kids. I believe the govt DOES NOT KNOW what is better for Wisconsin Rapids Wisconsin than the 20,000 people who live here.

Try not to take things personal and these discussions can remain civil and be productive. We can all learn from each other. Sounds kinda mushy, but it works better this way.



------------------
Wade

[Clint in Wichita]

Republicans are notorious for giving tax breaks to the rich under the guise of "trickle down economics". The money saved in taxes only "trickles" into their bank accounts and stock portfolios, making other rich folk even wealthier.

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
What is your definition of "Rich"?.

[Clint in Wichita]

I agree, WC. We all want what's best. While I dislike the fact that so many people take advantage of welfare, food stamps, etc., I believe in the IDEA of helping the poor, even if tax dollars are used.

IMO, building another aircraft carrier or building B-2 bombers at $2 billion each is exponentially more offensive than knowing that some people cheat the welfare system.

I can't see punishing all less fortunate people because of the relatively few scumbags that are simply lazy. I like the idea of having some sort of safety net in place that ANY of us might have to fall back on at some point.

[WisChief]

Also, Clint do you have ANY stocks or other investments such as 401k?

[Clint in Wichita]

I guess "rich" is a pretty ambiguous term. How would I define rich?

There are a couple definitions that come to mind immediately:

1) Anyone whose net worth meets or exceeds $1 million.

2) Anyone whose annual income is $200,000 or more.

I'm sure many will disagree with me. For instance, Bill Gates would try to sign up for food stamps if his annual income were suddenly lowered to $250,000/year!

[Clint in Wichita]

WC,

Yeah, my company has 401K and an ESOP program, but unfortunately they don't match any 401K dollars, and the ESOP program might get me $100,000...if I stay here until I retire.

I really need to scrape together enough cash to play the stock market on my own.

[WisChief]

Clint you just reinforce the principle here in Wisconsin and possibly Michigan (probably other states too) Our state simply makes people accountable for taking welfare. It has an ending (6 years) and that person must then take responsiblity for their own life.

Do you think 6 years is long enough? I do - hell I got my degree in 6 years while in the military.

[Logical]

Clint my response is:

1. Percentage is way, way too much
2. Percentage is not near enough should be around 60%.
3. Percentage is again far and away to much which is why I would like to see Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, and SS abandoned for a new system. I believe that half our present SS money should go to keeping the current and next generation obtaining there SS but the rest should be allowed to go to the individual to invest (or even put in a mandatory 401k fund. Because of the whole waste issue I am totally opposed to any national healthcare.

------------------
Jim Reynolds
If I were a Democrat I would surely be a sore loser!

[Clint in Wichita]

I don't necessarily want nationalized health care, but something should be done to lower health care costs so that insurance companies don't have us all by the testicles. That's quite a task, and I'm certainly not qualified to find a solution.

I guess the first thing that would have to be done is to limit insurance premiums. The govt. would still need to be involved in the process, passing laws to limit rates. THAT won't happen until politicians' incomes aren't heavily subsidized by insurance companies. Then there's the question of who's going to want go to school for 8 years to be a proctologist in the future if they only make half of what they do now, etc. etc. etc.

What a mess.

[WisChief]

"What a mess" is so true.

No wonder nothing gets done in Washington or State Capital Buildings - look at us here in Chiefsville! http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
Wow, I actually agree with you on something. The Demorats definition of rich are households making over 50K. The biggest tax break for the RICH 200k+ as you defined it came under the Clinton Administration. By lowering the capitol Gains rate to 20%. (which I don't disagree with). This is how it works. I start a company that becomes worth more and more every year. The only part of this that will be taxed will be the profits that I claim for the company. Everything I use to expand the company is not taxed. So as long as I don't show any profit by continueing to expand there is no tax.( The dot coms ). I own all my shares for a few pennys a share wich I go ahead and purchase and the clock starts ticking on capitol gains. This executive clears his position of 100 mill and is only going to be taxed at 20%. The biggest supporters of the demorats are the super rich., everything else is an illusion. They want the middle class to pick up the additional tax burden. If you had a scam like that going wouldn't you accuse the republicans of being guilty before they accused you. We all know that the media is all owned by the SUPER RICH. Why do you think there is so much left wing bias?. Think about it. Everything is not always how it seems. By the way I am no backer of the Republicans, I just feel like they get a bad rap from the Demorats.

[Clint in Wichita]

How about this for social security:

Put each American's money in an individual, numbered account that is as untouchable as it would be in a regular bank, and send a statement to each person at tax time. I don't mean invest it differently, just separate each person's money. That money would then be all the social security dollars you would collect, making it impossible for the system to go bankrupt.

Of course I wouldn't want 85 year old ladies starving to death...that's where a program like welfare should be used.

[Clint in Wichita]

BD,

I've seen read SO MUCH garbage from both sides that I've come to this cynical conclusion: Democrats AND Republicans cater to the rich. Who funds their campaigns? Who pays for votes?

I haven't noticed any organizations of bag ladies lobbying to make shopping carts more accessible to the pi_s poor!

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
Your just one step away from privatizing social security and taking it out of the goverment hands.WOW :eek:. You are making progress. Today is a good day.

[WisChief]

Clint, would interest be paid on it? Even so, I would bet that I could make more on just 1/2 of what I pay in SS if I could invest it on my own OR if it was manditorilly (sp?) put into my 401k here at work - even with out the company matching in your case

[Clint in Wichita]

I still trust the govt. more than big business. I don't want my SS dollars being invested in the stock market.

That brings up an interesting thought:

If the govt. starts investing billions of tax dollars in the stock market (without the individual, numbered accounts I spoke of earlier), won't that technically make the govt. a partial owner of many businesses? That is a BIG step towards full-blown socialism.

How will the country react when the govt. performs its first hostile takeover of a corporation? Microsoft had better watch its arse!

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
YES, YES, YES, You got it. It is not really about Demorats or Republicans, it is about the issues. I said before that the only reason I really did not want to see Sore win was because of what he will do to our constitution. I truely believe that the Demorats are currently at an all time low with this administration.

[bkkcoh]

Clint,

I thought when the government owned the factories, that was facist?

But I am probably wrong and I will sit corrected.

------------------
Brian K.

The future is much like the present, only longer.

[i]Don Quisenberry </I>

[KCTitus]

BK: you're right, it's facism.

[KCTitus]

A better idea, is to allow individuals to opt out of SS. For those responsible enough to actually maintain their own money, let them opt out and save/invest as they see fit.

Why maintain a govt bureaucracy to 'save' ones own money?

[Clint in Wichita]

I think my first suggestion would be best:

Just keep each persons money separated from all others, and LEAVE IT ALONE!

As of right now the system isn't broken, and if people are prevented from receiving more than their share, the system can never go bankrupt. Am I right?

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
Why are you so scared of being associated with anything on the right?. If it was the individuals account it would not be the goverments. If the person is fully diversified you don't have to trust corporations. I believe that if I earned that money I should control it. If you want we can make sure that people know what they are doing, you can always have them pass a number of exams in order to be qualified to make their own investments. Personal freedom, not goverment control, come on Clint, I know you can do it.

[Clint in Wichita]

Titus,

I agree with being allowed to "opt out" of SS. I don't think I'd do it...I think I'd actually trust myself with my retirement money even less than the govt.!!

[KCTitus]

The system IS broken. Do you know how long it takes the average retiree to receive his/her money back WITH interest?

[Clint in Wichita]

I don't mind paying a SS tax IF I get it back eventually. My only concern with the current system is that I'll pay into it for 45 years and have it shut down shortly before my retirement because the baby boomers wiped the system out.

As far as taxes go, SS is one item worthy of tax dollars, IMO.<BR>

[Clint in Wichita]

Titus,

Each person should be allowed to determine their monthly payments, or get it all at once, for that matter.

This could only happen with the individual accounts I spoke of earlier.

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
By the way I pay way over 60% tax. My income tax alone is will be at least 50%. Sales tax 9%. DMV fees and double, triple, quadruple taxation on the sale and resale of cars. Gas tax, liquor tax, property tax, to just name a few. How about multiple tax on products. Tax to the manufactuer. Tax on the distributor. Tax on the retailer. Not to mention more gas tax to get the product to market. How can you possibly say we dont have enough taxes. By the time we buy our goods we all are paying 50% - 85% tax. Taxing the population into oblivion in not the answer.

BIG DADDY
Thinks he pays way too many taxes

[KCTitus]

The only problem, Clint, is that SS is not a savings program. The money that is deducted from your check is paid out that same month to current retirees.

You are taking a humongous gamble to trust those younger than you to continue a system that taxes them at an estimated rate of about 18% (9% employee/9% employer) to pay you SS.

Currently SS is 2.3 trillion full of IOU's the cash isnt there to payoff the upcoming baby boomers.

[Clint in Wichita]

I NEVER IN MY LIFE have said we don't pay enough taxes.

I don't understand how you could pay 50% in taxes, if you mean payroll deudtions. I claim zero deductions, always check the "married, but withhold at higher, single rate" box, AND have a little extra taken out, just in case. I owed on April 15th once, and that's all it took for me. I STILL don't have anywhere near 50% taken out of my check. More like 30%, which is still too much, although it's less than what people in most other countries pay.

I don't think the existing military should be cut back, but the ridiculous amounts of money spent on R & D for experimental projects (Star Wars, B-2 Bomber) is ridiculous. Not to mention untold billions of dollars that are spent without the knowledge of the general public.

[Clint in Wichita]

I agree, Titus. I don't want to depend on some baggy-jean-wearing piercing experiment gone awry to fund my retirement.

The only money you should get out of SS is money you yourself put in.

SS should BECOME a savings program.

[WisChief]

Clint, you have a real problem with the military - huh? http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[WisChief]

Yes the SS should become a savings plan PLUS INTEREST. That is important because if someone else is going to have my money to use for whatever then I should recieve compensation for it. It's very simple really.

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
I am sure that my tax bracket is much higher but remember how much tax you are paying on every item you purchase. If you are in the 30% bracket, you are still paying more like 50% by the time you actually use your money.

[Mi_chief_fan]

I was in the military from 92-96, and I can attest to the large amounts of wasted $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that Clint speaks of.

[Mi_chief_fan]

BD,
Who determines sales tax, state or federal government?

[Clint in Wichita]

WisChief,

No, I agree that we need to maintain the strongest military on the planet, but at this point building something like the B-2 bomber is like the Yankees signing Pedro Martinez...they can win the freaking World Series without him...why spend the money?

IMO our defense should be just that...DEFENSE. The U.S.A. is in absolutely no danger of being invaded & occupied. We need to able to handle the next Hitler, but IMO we DON'T need to be able to handle 2 major wars AND act as the World Police Force at the same time.

I'd like to see an enemy force try to occupy South Central Los Angeles or South Dallas!!

[This message has been edited by Clint in Wichita (edited 11-28-2000).]

[htismaqe]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Helvetica, verdana, ariel">quote:</font><HR>More like 30%, which is still too much, although it's less than what people in most other countries pay.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very, VERY true, Clint. It's unfortunate, too. But it all boils down to common sense. In Germany, my family paid roughly 43% taxes. From that they got free healthcare, free schools, and the list goes on. Here in the US, I pay 30% taxes and my neighbor gets free food, free beer, free satellite TV, and free warrants 3 times a week.


------------------
Parker
ChiefsPlanet Administrator

[This message has been edited by htismaqe (edited 11-28-2000).]

[KCTitus]

Here's a good write up on SS and the need for reform:
http://www.atr.org/policybriefs/ss5.17.00.htm

Clint: the only real danger in the world today is the possibility of Russia selling it's nuclear technology/plutonium/warheads to the highest bidder to help their economy.

Also, China is flexing its muscle once again against Japan and Taiwan.

The middle east is no picnic with India and Pakistan now developing nuclear weapons. We dont need nuclear weapons in the middle east.

[Clint in Wichita]

I think we can all agree that we should certainly be getting more for our money. The govt., no matter who happens to be charge at the time, should treat the American people more like customers at Bloomingdale's and less like employees at McDonald's, something it has never done.

[Clint in Wichita]

Titus,

Nukes pretty much negate any military force. You can't just go marching into a nuclear-capable country and expect to fight a conventional war...especially in the Middle East, where many people are "overly committed" to their various causes.

[BIG_DADDY]

Mi,
That would be the State. I am not trying to pick on the Fereal Goverment, just showing what the true purchasing power value is compared to what we earn. I am well aware that this will vary from state to state.

BIG DADDY
Doesn't ever remember voting on any of our taxes. http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/mad.gif

[DanT]

Social Security is an insurance program. If you become disabled during your working years, Social Security kicks in. If you die during your working years, I believe that Social Security kicks in for your survivors, though I'm not sure exactly how that works. Anyone who's worked for enough years--I doubt that there's many on this board who haven't, even though we're a relatively young crowd--is already getting these benefits (disability insurance).

Of course, the main benefit from Social Security is as a supplemental income program for retirees. I don't have a problem with Bush's proposal to give individuals the option of investing some of their own Social Security money, but I do have a problem with letting middle-age folks opt out of an insurance program in mid-coverage after surviving some of the devastating risks that can befall workers when they are young (e.g. schizophrenia, spinal-cord injuries, etc.)

Of course, unless you're really strapped for cash, you should invest in a supplemental long-term disability insurance policy as well as in a tax-deferred retirement savings program. You're better off not depending on Social Security exclusively.

[BIG_DADDY]

Titus,
We are selling our nuclear secrets as fast as anyong else. This administration has been the worst. We just do it under the table here. Oops those Chinese accidentally got our secrets BS. Who really benefits from an arms race financially - we do. We have the latest technology and everyone has to have some weapons if their neighbor does. It is a very dangerous game.

[WisChief]

Clint - I was just pick'n at you about the military - I felt safe assuming you really didn't want to disband or anything :D

The reason we build more and more and do more and more R/D is the deterring factor that it provides. Other countries know what we are developing and building and they then know it is hopeless to try to get "testy" with the USA.

I may be incorrect, but I believe your man Sore wants to spend more on the very thing you so are against than Bush does. I believe that Sore only wants to do so to build credibility with the military - btw.<P>

[Mi_chief_fan]

If your blaming the president for the security "lapse" at Los Alamos, I think your overstating it a bit. I doubt Willie would just sit idly by and let our secrets be stolen. I thought I read where the "lost" harddrives were never really lost?

Maybe i'm wrong.

I'm not sure this administration has been the worst. Remember the Walker family? Iran-Contra? Who's administration did those take place?

Who closed all of the Military bases here in the U.S. over the last 10 years? People should be aware it was GEORGE BUSH that decided to close more of our military bases, not Clinton.

Speaking of democrats raising taxes, who was it that uttered the words "READ MY LIPS, NO NEW TAXES!"

[This message has been edited by Mi_chief_fan (edited 11-28-2000).]

[bkkcoh]

Clint,

We all know Bush isn't totally responsible for the tax increase, congress has to share part of the blame. There wasn't any way at all he was going to get much past the congress at that time. Bush should have never said 'Read my lips', but people also have to remember that congress is an 'I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine'. Unfortunatley the one who scratches last usually draws blood.



------------------
Brian K.

The future is much like the present, only longer.

[i]Don Quisenberry </I>

[Clint in Wichita]

According to all I've heard and read, nuclear devices are actually quite simple. It's the quality radioactive material that's extremely difficult to obtain.

The only advanced technology would be the guidance systems needed for intercontinental strikes, but who needs that when you've got a wacko who's willing to deliver the device in a duffel bag?

[Mi_chief_fan]

BTW, i'm not Clint.

[Clint in Wichita]

Both parties have already proven that they can and will continue to raise taxes to new heights during each administration. I'm afraid middle-class taxes will never decrease.

I wonder what the tax rates were like during the Boston Tea Party?

[bkkcoh]

Clint,

I thought the main problem that caused the Boston Tea Party was the 'taxation without representation'. I almost feel like that is the case now. Wasn't it a few years ago someone was trying to organize a 'current day' tea party by sending our congressmen tea bags?

That might not be a bad idea to do know to let the new congress know how we feel about the situation.

------------------
Brian K.

The future is much like the present, only longer.

Don Quisenberry

[This message has been edited by bkkcoh (edited 11-28-2000).]

[BIG_DADDY]

Mi,
How foolish of me. Clinton was never warming up to the Chinese, give me a break. No I will never be able to produce photos showing that we gave that information away. Yes, I try to follow the money and draw some conclusions. Are you trying say that the Bush administration was more corrupt than the Clinton administration?. Let's see whitwater, monicagate, illegal campaign contributions, anti-terrorist bill,excessive gun legislation, rape, sexual harassment - how many cases?. Not to mention how many people have died around this guy. By the way, all of the military bases closed out here were done during the Clinton Administration. Where are you getting your facts about the last 10yrs?.

[Clint in Wichita]

There is no "representation" in govt. at all, as long as every Congressman and Presidential candidate comes from a privileged background.

A better way to protest would be if the majority of the population refused to fill out tax forms.

I wonder what sort of reaction THAT would get out of the govt.?

[Mark M]

I'm a little late on this thread, but talk about propoganda!! Geez!

Don't get me wrong, I don't feel Gore is the best choice, but give me a break!

Is allowing gays inthe military or allowing gay marriages such a bad thing? Are you (or others, I should say) afraid that an gay infantryman will stop to give the enemy a makeover rather than killing them? And how does same sex marriages affect anyone other than those getting married?
And as far as the Boy Scouts go (I was a scout until age 17) I think people are confusing gays with pedophiles, not the same thing. Not even close. Although I don't know how I would've felt as a teenager...probably uncomfortable. I'm still not sure on this one issue.

There are more issues I have a problem with (i.e. Gore demonizing the bible, as opposed to some Repubs who would make it our constitution), but this is just the one thing I decided to bring up. (And no, I'm not gay. Just thin and neat. Seriously. I'm married. To a woman.)

MM
--Picking his battle...perhaps poorly.<BR>

[bkkcoh]

Big Daddy,

That isn't a fair comparison, Bush was only in office for 4 years.... ;)



------------------
Brian K.

The future is much like the present, only longer.

[i]Don Quisenberry </I>

[Clint in Wichita]

Please don't start with the Clinton garbage again. What was his punishment in the Whitewater scandal? Which rape was he convicted of? Are you really naive enough to believe that Clinton is the first President to have accepted money from an illegal source? Or that only Democrats would do such a thing?

Is Clinton scum? Yes.

Does that set him apart from any other President over the last 40 years? Not in My opinion.<BR>

[Clint in Wichita]

You would think that those who view gays as immoral sinners would try to FORCE them into the military, not BAN them.

How else could thousands of gays get wiped out at once?

[WisChief]

It is so very unfortunate for Clinton and his administration over the years that he is such a complete and utter moron. 50, 100, 200 years from now, he will not be studied for the good things he has done (see there I can look around the **** he did :)), he will be studied for all the dumb *hit he did. The guy is a looser - IMHO

[Clint in Wichita]

I don't know...JFK was banging that slutty bimbo Marylin, and my guess is that she brought more to their little "parties" than just a hellacious rack. I'm guessing she was sharing her stash with the Pres.

His reputation seems pretty good...but then again, he was whacked rather than dragged through the mud.

[Baby Lee]

double post - sorry

[This message has been edited by JC-Johnny (edited 11-28-2000).]

[Baby Lee]

Mark M - I too was a Cub and Boy Scout [Eagle, 79-86]. The pedophile embroglio is a red-herring on this issue.
First and foremost, the issue is does the organization [or any private organization] have the right to institute a moral weight-line such as this? By analogy, should Catholic Hospitals be required to perform abortions?
Second, the more likely 'danger' of openly homosexual scoutmasters is the insertion of sexual topics, discusssions, viewpoints, into an environment parents have a right to expect to be filled with knot tying, craftsmanship and to be a generally outdoorsy but decidedly NON-sexual environment.
The pedophilia angle is not supported by the evidence, but one cannot argue that most homosexuals have baggage from their own teen experience. It is natural for them to want reach out. It is understandable for them to try to discern the appropriate cases to tell a troubled teen 'it's OK, your gay.' To be [in the words of Will to Jack on 'Will & Grace'] '[their] sherpas in the Himalayas of him-a-layin.' I'll even ascribe to it the best of intentions. They're trying to save another kid the troubles they faced. BUT it isn't what parents expect their boy scouts to be exposed to.<BR>

[BIG_DADDY]

Mark,
I never said that I agreed with all of it only parts. Why don't you try this administrations assault on our constitution instead of bringing up the Gay issue again. That is all anyone wanted to talk about yesterday.

BIG DADDY
Is into letting the butt pirates do what they want just as long as I don't have to pay for their high-risk health care.

[Clint in Wichita]

What is the point of the Boy Scouts...how does it differ from little league, Pop Warner, etc.? It seems almost like preschool for the military to me.

I'm thinking my kid's going to be more interested in sports than other "outdoor activities".

[bkkcoh]

Clint,

Were you ever in the cub/boy scouts?



------------------
Brian K.

The future is much like the present, only longer.

[i]Don Quisenberry </I>

[BIG_DADDY]

Mark,
The boy scout thing is another issue. People should be able to have clubs and come together with common beliefs without having infringed on someone elses rights. If he wants to be a scout master, let him start the gay scouts. If they don't want any straight people there, I'm sure that no one will be offended.

[Clint in Wichita]

BD,

I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion about gays, either, but ANYONE who engages in unprotected sex is in a high-risk group, unless you are part of a stricly monogamous couple.

AIDS hasn't been a "fag disease" for quite some time. Actually, since it was a naturally occuring virus carried by accident into America by a straight female stewardess (supposedly), it never was a "fag disease".

[Clint in Wichita]

bkkcoh,

Nope, I never was. That why I was asking about the point of Boy Scouts, other than the obvious...learning about teamwork, responsibility, etc. that you can also learn from team sports.

[Mark M]

double post. sorry.

MM
--Hates it when that happens.

[This message has been edited by Mark M (edited 11-28-2000).]

[Mark M]

JC--
Very, very well put. As I said, I'm not sure about this one. I feel that any voluntary group has the right to make its own rules, yet I don't like to see ignorance and hate rule the day. I see your point that parents would have a problem with it (I know my mom would've had a cow. My dad...don't know.)

But you're point about Scouts being non-sexual is very important. So I ask you this: If a leader was gay, was a succesful leader with no record of talking sexually with his scouts, and was later found to be gay, would it be a problem? I would completely understand a problem with a leader who was openly hitting on his scouts, but if no one could tell, why would it be a problem? I'm not criticizing you or your viewpoint, just wondering.

As far as the leader being a sexual sherpa (kinda funny, actually), is that also a problem? Many gays have problems not because their gay, but because they can't admit that they are. If someone who has been there want to help, why is that so bad? As long as the leader doesn't "make" them gay or force them to do "gay things" (my words, not anyone else's) what is the issue? Most parents fear having a gay child, but they have to find out sooner or later, don't they?

Again, just wondering, not criticizing.

MM
--Can't believe he started this.

[Clint in Wichita]

As far as a kid being "talked into" being gay:

I have a hard time believing that a normal kid over age 7 or 8, who isn't overly-sheltered, could be talked into being gay, especially in this day and age.

[Mark M]

BD--
I AM upset with this administration. Just sick and freaking tired of all of the Republican, right-wing, we've-never-done-anything-wrong-and-are-such-perfect-people propoganda. To quote the right-wing's favorite document, the Bible, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Most Republicans want to rule by this book, yet don't live by it.

As far as bringing up the gay thing, sorry. I have been busy and didn't get to check all of the posts. Sorry 'bout that.

MM
--Hates hate...in any form.

[This message has been edited by Mark M (edited 11-28-2000).]

[Mark M]

Clint--
Exactly my point. Thanks.

MM
--Like Clint....for now. http://www.chiefsplanet.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

[BIG_DADDY]

Mark,
The boyscouts believe that homosexuality is immoral. They have the right to believe that and congregate under that beliefe. The next step would be to tell people what they can believe in. I hope you are not proposing that.

[Clint in Wichita]

The Bible as a blueprint for society?

Now THAT'S a truly frightening thought.

[bkkcoh]

If the gay society is so fed up with an organization like the boy scouts, why don't they come up with their own organization and teach the values they feel are correct.

If you don't like what an organization stands for, don't be a member of that organization. Isn't that easy enough? Kind of like turning the radio or tv off when you hear or see something you don't like.



------------------
Brian K.

The future is much like the present, only longer.

[i]Don Quisenberry </I>

[Clint in Wichita]

The Boy Scouts' leadership may believe that homosexuality is immoral, but are they teaching that closed-minded garbage to the kids? I'd rather have gay person act as a role model for my kid.

[BIG_DADDY]

Mark,
People should have the right to meet under any belief system even if it is hateful organization. Lets use the Nazis for an example. As much as I may not believe in their system they certainly have a right to that opinion. If you take that away you are opening a Pandoras box.

[Clint in Wichita]

bkkcoh,

One reason there will never be any "Gay Scouts" is this: How do you know who you want to lay the wood to before you feel the urge to have sex at 12 or 13 years old?

In my experience, only the nerdiest of the nerds remained in the Boy Scouts after puberty.

[BIG_DADDY]

Clint,
Great then teach your kid that. That is your right just as much as it is their right to teach their kids their value system. Surely your not saying that you know what is best for everyone?.

[Baby Lee]

Don't kid yourself that 7-8 years old equals a solid understanding of yourself. Trust me, I've seen what transformations can go on in an effort to fit in. One of my friends in scouts had an annoying [actually scary in retrospect] trait where he would ID the biggest 'loser' in the troop and constantly talk up how cool he was. He never came out and admitted it, and he never did anything mean, but it was clear that he enjoyed seeing this person think he actually was 'cool' on just his say-so.
But the efficacy of peer-pressure isn't the issue. It the expectations of the parents, and the right of the boy scouts to maintain those expectations.

[KCTitus]

There is a Gay Scouts organization, It's call the Brownies. Okay, that was a bit much.

[Clint in Wichita]

Yes, being open-minded and tolerant, rather than fearful and hateful, IS best for EVERYONE.

Don't believe me? Ask your friendly neighborhood Native American, if you can find one.