WWII Deaths

[Amnorix]

A fascinating video. Maybe it should go in DC, but it's history and I think has a wider pool of potentially interested people, so

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Sweet Daddy Williams

Unconventional technology.

Actually, what is sort of amusing here is that you are echoing Hitler's own belief. He was completely convinced, until the bitter end, that something miraculous would happen to turn around Germany's steady losses. They really went nowhere but backwards starting from the losses at Stalingrad (Feb 1943) and North Africa (May 1943).

For two years, Hitler thought that some technological breakthrough or SOMETHING would save Germany. Between those two battles though, the Germans lost well over a million men killed, wounded or captured, and never really recovered. From there, it was nothing but a long, slow, painful series of strategic losses with occasional limited tactical victories.

And no technology the Germans were then working on was going to reverse that trend.

[Amnorix]

Cool video of the change in territory day by day during WWII.

[Donger]

Originally Posted by Sweet Daddy Williams

Had we not invaded and pushed across when we did, we were about two to three months from being completely ****ed by the Germans.

They were very, VERY close to completing technology that would have decimated the allies.

As luck would have it, we were more than happy to commandeer those brilliant minds and put them to work, post-Berlin.

What technology?

[Aspengc8]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Actually, what is sort of amusing here is that you are echoing Hitler's own belief. He was completely convinced, until the bitter end, that something miraculous would happen to turn around Germany's steady losses. They really went nowhere but backwards starting from the losses at Stalingrad (Feb 1943) and North Africa (May 1943).

For two years, Hitler thought that some technological breakthrough or SOMETHING would save Germany. Between those two battles though, the Germans lost well over a million men killed, wounded or captured, and never really recovered. From there, it was nothing but a long, slow, painful series of strategic losses with occasional limited tactical victories.

And no technology the Germans were then working on was going to reverse that trend.

This. Hitler was an idiot and pretty much ignored any sound military advice given to him by his generals. His forces were spread too thin. If his generals killed him, it may have been a different outcome. My grandfather was a B-24 navigator, and told me some pretty crazy stories. He also said that if Hitler wasnt so tunnel visioned, they probably couldn't have landed on the beaches. He also told me a crazy story that the US was didn't want to really deploy, and that the british ended up sinking some american ships and blamed it on the germans to force us into it. German forces knew they were spread to thin to defend a landing and did NOT want us to deploy. Just food for thought.

[Prison Bitch]

Originally Posted by Otter

I often wonder the outcome of WWII if Germany allied with Russia instead of invading. Not 100% the Axis would have won but wow, the land campaigns would have been so much more brutal for the Allies.

Thanks for link.

I don't understand the question - what if two nations that despised each other suddenly decided to ally? Wonder why you asked that. Assuming they didn't hate each other, the obvious answer is that they'd rule the world and with ease. German technology and creativity + Russian mapower and natural resources would dominate.



Put it this way: in London just after the war's conclusion, Scotland Yard tried to figure out how the West should proceed with the Soviet Union (who was now in Germany and hence on their doorstep). A memo to Churchill concluded that it would take the entire armies of England, the USA, France, and even a re-constituted German army to repel any USSR invasion.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Aspengc8

This. Hitler was an idiot and pretty much ignored any sound military advice given to him by his generals. His forces were spread too thin. If his generals killed him, it may have been a different outcome.

Let's unpack your post, since it's got some separate concepts going on.

First, the above. "Hitler was an idiot" is waaay too broad a statement. In many ways, yes he was. In at least some ways (for example, adopting von Manstein's invasion plan for France over the objections of more senior generals) he was a genius. In all ways he was ****ing mass-murdering psychopath.

However you have to take the "good" with the bad. If it wasn't for Hitler, Germany never would have controlled basically ALL of Europe at one point in time. If it wasn't for Hitler, maybe they could have held it longer.

My grandfather was a B-24 navigator, and told me some pretty crazy stories. He also said that if Hitler wasnt so tunnel visioned, they probably couldn't have landed on the beaches.

Well, questionable. The real issue wasn't so much landing, as Rommel did most all that could be done to prevent a landing, but rather whether the Allies could have been repulsed by, for example, an earlier release of the tanks around Pas de Calais to counterattack.

I dont' attribute that so much to Hitler being an idiot or tunnel-visioned, but rather the success of the Allied efforts to confuse/misdirect the Germans.

He also told me a crazy story that the US was didn't want to really deploy, and that the british ended up sinking some american ships and blamed it on the germans to force us into it. German forces knew they were spread to thin to defend a landing and did NOT want us to deploy. Just food for thought.

Too vague. Deploy what, when? You mean launch the actual D-Day attack? If so, do you mean launch it literally ON THAT DAY, or launch it in general?

I've read quite a bit on this stuff, between Churchill's (very self-serving) six volume World War II history to Alanbrooke's diaries (which are superb) and books on Marshall and Roosevelt, but need more information on what the story is here.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Prison Bitch

I don't understand the question - what if two nations that despised each other suddenly decided to ally? Wonder why you asked that. Assuming they didn't hate each other, the obvious answer is that they'd rule the world and with ease. German technology and creativity + Russian mapower and natural resources would dominate.



Put it this way: in London just after the war's conclusion, Scotland Yard tried to figure out how the West should proceed with the Soviet Union (who was now in Germany and hence on their doorstep). A memo to Churchill concluded that it would take the entire armies of England, the USA, France, and even a re-constituted German army to repel any USSR invasion.

Really? The London Police Department (fancy name, but that's what it is) concluded that?! Wow, must be definitive then!

It's bullshit. First, we had friggin nukes, and the Soviets still didn't have any long-range bombers worth the name. Second, IF we had had time to redeploy (and fully mobilize) then the US/UK (plus commonwealths) would have far more population and far more troops, potentially, then the Soviet Union.

I'm not saying by any means that it's some kind of cakewalk. FAR from it, but

Originally Posted by Putin's Bitch, again with the Russia-love

the obvious answer is that they'd rule the world and with ease

IS COMPLETELY WRONG.


Edit to note that Russia would have zero capacity to launch any kind of amphibious assault against England, much less cross the ocean and attack the U.S. Their "navy" at the end of WWII was a complete joke. Like basically non-existent.

[Dave Lane]

I love idiots who think they understand WWII. Really? the Germans and the Russians get along? Stalin and Hitler were both maniacal egomaniacs. Now to mention Hitler was running a far right state that had killed 1000s of German communists to come to power. No way these two powers are allied for any length of time let alone to fight all of the allies.

[Otter]

Originally Posted by Dave Lane

I love idiots who think they understand WWII. Really? the Germans and the Russians get along? Stalin and Hitler were both maniacal egomaniacs. Now to mention Hitler was running a far right state that had killed 1000s of German communists to come to power. No way these two powers are allied for any length of time let alone to fight all of the allies.

It's a made up scenario, a "what if" if that makes sense dick loon. Stalin wasn't exactly a big fan of capitalism either but he sided with the USA and the allies out of a deal with the devil of convenience.

Get laid dude. Seriously.

[Otter]

Hey Loon! The Nazi's were Christian!



FETCH BOY!!!

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Otter

It's a made up scenario, a "what if" if that makes sense dick loon. Stalin wasn't exactly a big fan of capitalism either but he sided with the USA and the allies out of a deal with the devil of convenience.

Get laid dude. Seriously.

They also "allied" (though that is too strong a term, actually) in the form of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which was a non-aggression pact but had a secret protocol to conquer Poland and divide it between them.

[Otter]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

They also "allied" (though that is too strong a term, actually) in the form of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, which was a non-aggression pact but had a secret protocol to conquer Poland and divide it between them.

As another "what if"...

If I remember correctly didn't Japan kind of hoodwink Germany by not attacking Russia thru Siberia simultaneously and hitting Russia from two frontsl? Take away the mushroom cloud maker and there's a couple cool scenarios that one can dream up.

Neat stuff.

[Donger]

History geek fight!

[Gonzo]

Well, looking like this'ns bout to go all DC.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Otter

As another "what if"...

If I remember correctly didn't Japan kind of hoodwink Germany by not attacking Russia thru Siberia simultaneously and hitting Russia from two frontsl? Take away the mushroom cloud maker and there's a couple cool scenarios that one can dream up.

Neat stuff.

I'm not aware of any formal agreement or promise by the Japanese to Germany regarding attacking the USSR.

There were actually some very serious battles (heavy skirmishes perhaps?) along the Soviet/Manchurian border between USSR and Japanese forces. They were the first battles that Zhukov was involved in actually, IIRC.

Had Japan been more aggressive, even in feinting attacks, they could have helped the Germans substantially by potentially typing up Soviet troops. As it was, they basically got beat and went back to focusing on the stuff that really mattered to them -- China and their seagoing power focus.