Chiefs I really like our corners right now. - Page 4

Direckshun · 09-29-2016, 07:04 AM

I realize I'm probably going to regret saying this as Big Ben can legitimately carve up even elite secondaries, but two guys have me super impressed, aside from the usual amazing Marcus Peters:

Phillip Gaines. He's got some technique to clean up on, but he's started this season against Hopkins/Fuller and Marshall/Decker (we'll ignore the Chargers, since Keenan Allen was beating the shit out of Peters Week 1) and held his own. These WRs are more savvy than him right now but I'm getting flashbacks to when we started Brandon Carr for his rookie year -- he'll only get better as he gets more experience. His recovery speed is awesome, and he's almost always in the receiver's pocket.

Steven Nelson. What a shock to the system this guy has been -- the staff has handled him absolutely perfectly. Redshirting him last year was just the perfect thing to do, because his versatility in the secondary this year is invaluable. He's playing 100% of the snaps because we can put him on the outside and in the slot, shifting him all over the place on every drive. While, for now, we also play him a lot on special teams. Nelson has challenged everything, and seems to have the superior technique over Gaines. Nelson is also incredibly demonstrative and energetic on the field -- a perfect pairing with Peters, and that is turning out to be a 3rd rounder well spent.

DJ White, also. We have to talk about this kid. He's played like 12 defensive snaps for us so far this year and has made plays on roughly half of them. Like Nelson, he is an incredible competitor and so energetic on the field. His play against the Chargers (on his one snap!) was around the time the defense woke up. I love this kid, I think he's a pistol and he should definitely be in the rotation in dime packages over Sorensen.

The Russell thing still makes no sense to me, but it's really regretful that he didn't wake the **** up because having yet another young corner who can play would have really bulked up this secondary.

My favorite thing about this secondary is my favorite thing about our offensive line, our defensive line, our receivers, and our passrush: barring any tragic injuries, they're going to be so much better in Week 17 than they are now. They'll learn with our great coaching staff, they'll develop with playing time, and they'll gel better as a unit and as Sutton figures out where all the pieces fit.

If we can at least limp into the playoffs with a fully healthy Houston in January, we can hang with absolutely AFC team -- except perhaps the Pats, who seem to have successfully hacked the game of football.

That's our ceiling, though. Pretty exciting.

staylor26 · 09-29-2016, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Or maybe the praise is just too high?

All things considered, no i don't think he's looked "pretty ****ing good". "pretty ****ing good" is strong praise. He's looked adequate in coverage, and sub par in everything else.

I don't know what else to say at this point, other than your evaluation is extremely harsh, and I'm glad you aren't out there scouting corners for us.

Hammock Parties · 09-29-2016, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staylor26

In what ****ing universe is playing extremely well in your first 3 starts "below average"?

He's been better than that in his 3 starts for sure.

ToxSocks · 09-29-2016, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staylor26

I don't know what else to say at this point, other than your evaluation is extremely harsh, and I'm glad you aren't out there scouting corners for us.

And you can't talk Chiefs with out going extreme homer, so your evaluation of anyone's evaluation doesn't mean much around here.

O.city · 09-29-2016, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Or maybe the praise is just too high?

All things considered, no i don't think he's looked "pretty ****ing good". "pretty ****ing good" is strong praise. He's looked adequate in coverage, and sub par in everything else.

It's not that those things don't matter or aren't inportant. They are.

But as has always been the case in a capped league, you aren't going to be able to have 11 pro bowl guys on a defense. Sean smith was similar in traits. Not a great tackler, kind of meh ball skills, but he could cover here.

Not every player is gonna be an all pro.

staylor26 · 09-29-2016, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detoxing

And you can't talk Chiefs with out going extreme homer, so your evaluation of anyone's evaluation doesn't mean much around here.

Yea, whatever.

I'm honestly not being a homer about this. I acknowledge that Gaines has been beat. I'll acknowledge he missed some tackles. I'll acknowledge he got called for a couple penalties, though I didn't agree with one of them.

He also made a couple great tackles/plays in space too. He had two against the Chargers that you continue to ignore.

Has he gotten beat deep? Has he gotten beat bad repeatedly? No. I'd go as far to say he hasn't had one game nearly as bad as Smith vs. Watkins last year. He's been more than adequate as a cheaper/younger replacement.

Your evaluation of him sucks, and you're in the minority here (with Clay and Inmen of all people) for a reason. O.City isn't a "homer" like me, so what's the excuse there? You're wrong dude. Plain and simple.

ToxSocks · 09-29-2016, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

It's not that those things don't matter or aren't inportant. They are.

But as has always been the case in a capped league, you aren't going to be able to have 11 pro bowl guys on a defense. Sean smith was similar in traits. Not a great tackler, kind of meh ball skills, but he could cover here.

Not every player is gonna be an all pro.

Im not asking him to be all pro or even a Pro-Bowler. Im fully aware that we can't have stars at all positions. If Gaines had Smith's physicallity this wouldn't be a conversation right now.

Im not asking him to tackle like Eric Berry. Im asking him to not miss wide-the ****-open tackles.

He's not tackling like an NFL Corner right now. Please, i would LOVE it if he tackled like Sean Smith. Tackle like Marcus Peters. You don't need to be Brandon Flowers, but you can't be as much of a liability as he's been.

His missed tackle in Houston, and then allowing a huge gain to Hopkins on that same drive on a 3rd and 17....that may well have cost us that game. At the very least, it put the game out of reach and killed any chance at a come back.

Jesus guys, my complaints have already been fleshed out this season, and you're still trying to argue it's not a big deal??? C'mon now....

Direckshun · 09-29-2016, 12:31 PM

Marcus Peters is NOT a great tackler.

ToxSocks · 09-29-2016, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Direckshun

Marcus Peters is NOT a great tackler.

Exactly.

But you know what? He tackles when he needs to. He's not a great tackler. He's no Brandon Flowers. But he's not a liability either. I'd love to see Peters be more aggressive in that part of his game, but his tackling isn't so bad that it's a liability. His tackling is competent.

Gaines has had guys squared up, one on one and all he does is stick his ****ing arm out and bounce off their thigh pads. THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Grab his ankle, hold on for dear life, idgaf, but simply whiffing and sticking your arm out....that's some high school shit.

ToxSocks · 09-29-2016, 12:38 PM

And again, my concerns have already been fleshed out on the field. You can't sit there and tell me it's not a problem when we've already seen it be a problem!

I mean....damn??

We've already seen it! Don't tell me it's not a problem.

staylor26 · 09-29-2016, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Exactly.

But you know what? He tackles when he needs to. He's not a great tackler. He's no Brandon Flowers. But he's not a liability either. I'd love to see Peters be more aggressive in that part of his game, but his tackling isn't so bad that it's a liability. His tackling is competent.

Gaines has had guys squared up, one on one and all he does is stick his ****ing arm out and bounce off their thigh pads. THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Grab his ankle, hold on for dear life, idgaf, but simply whiffing and sticking your arm out....that's some high school shit.

He's made some plays outside of coverage too, but just continue to ignore it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RealMNchi...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

https://mobile.twitter.com/RealMNchi...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

He's missed a couple, he's made a couple. He didn't make the tackle on the second one, which means you'll probably try to spin it as a negative, but he blew up the play. If you don't see that as a positive, then you're really terrible at this.

O.city · 09-29-2016, 12:43 PM

I feel like we're on a different page of a different book here detox.

He does need to improve as a tackler, but tackling ability for a corner isn't as important as coverage ability for a corner.

Like the houston missed tackle, the problem there was his missed tackle, but just as much so in asking a poor tackler to make that tackle. It wasn't a simple play.

ToxSocks · 09-29-2016, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by staylor26

He's made some plays outside of coverage too, but just continue to ignore it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RealMNchi...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

https://mobile.twitter.com/RealMNchi...rc=twsrc%5Etfw

Are you ****ing kidding me?

You link me yet another arm-whiff missed tackle as if that invalidates my point? In man coverage he missed a tackle against the WR he was covering.

Im glad that one of your two gifs displayed him making a good play. I'd hope you can find those here and there, otherwise he has no business starting.

"To demonstrate that you're wrong about his tacking, here's a GIF showing Gaines missing a tackle"

Brilliant.

staylor26 · 09-29-2016, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Are you ****ing kidding me?

You link me yet another arm-whiff missed tackle as if that invalidates my point? In man coverage he missed a tackle against the WR he was covering.

Im glad that one of your two gifs displayed him making a good play. I'd hope you can find those here and there, otherwise he has no business starting.

"To demonstrate that you're wrong about his tacking, here's a GIF showing Gaines missing a tackle"

Brilliant.

You're officially a ****ing moron. He blew up the play. Could he have made the tackle? Sure. But that's a solid play.

ToxSocks · 09-29-2016, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city

I feel like we're on a different page of a different book here detox.

He does need to improve as a tackler, but tackling ability for a corner isn't as important as coverage ability for a corner.

Like the houston missed tackle, the problem there was his missed tackle, but just as much so in asking a poor tackler to make that tackle. It wasn't a simple play.

He's going to be asked to make those tackles more and more often, as teams will throw screens to that side until he proves it, as they've been doing. If we have to shade help over to his side because we can't trust him to tackle, then that's proof that his tackling is a liablity.

That drive against Houston illustrates how people are over rating him.

Misses huge tackle: "Don't worry about tackling, it's all about his coverage"

Subsequently surrenders a 16.5 yard gain on 3rd and 17: Crickets.

PFF stats come out illustrating that he's having some struggles: Crickets.

O.city · 09-29-2016, 12:48 PM

I dunno, I mean, he held up the wr long enough for the calvary to arrive. Being that he's not a good tackler, isn't that what we want?

09-29-2016, 07:04 AM
Direckshun __ Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Springpatch Casino cash: $2033447	I really like our corners right now. I realize I'm probably going to regret saying this as Big Ben can legitimately carve up even elite secondaries, but two guys have me super impressed, aside from the usual amazing Marcus Peters: Phillip Gaines. He's got some technique to clean up on, but he's started this season against Hopkins/Fuller and Marshall/Decker (we'll ignore the Chargers, since Keenan Allen was beating the shit out of Peters Week 1) and held his own. These WRs are more savvy than him right now but I'm getting flashbacks to when we started Brandon Carr for his rookie year -- he'll only get better as he gets more experience. His recovery speed is awesome, and he's almost always in the receiver's pocket. Steven Nelson. What a shock to the system this guy has been -- the staff has handled him absolutely perfectly. Redshirting him last year was just the perfect thing to do, because his versatility in the secondary this year is invaluable. He's playing 100% of the snaps because we can put him on the outside and in the slot, shifting him all over the place on every drive. While, for now, we also play him a lot on special teams. Nelson has challenged everything, and seems to have the superior technique over Gaines. Nelson is also incredibly demonstrative and energetic on the field -- a perfect pairing with Peters, and that is turning out to be a 3rd rounder well spent. DJ White, also. We have to talk about this kid. He's played like 12 defensive snaps for us so far this year and has made plays on roughly half of them. Like Nelson, he is an incredible competitor and so energetic on the field. His play against the Chargers (on his one snap!) was around the time the defense woke up. I love this kid, I think he's a pistol and he should definitely be in the rotation in dime packages over Sorensen. The Russell thing still makes no sense to me, but it's really regretful that he didn't wake the **** up because having yet another young corner who can play would have really bulked up this secondary. My favorite thing about this secondary is my favorite thing about our offensive line, our defensive line, our receivers, and our passrush: barring any tragic injuries, they're going to be so much better in Week 17 than they are now. They'll learn with our great coaching staff, they'll develop with playing time, and they'll gel better as a unit and as Sutton figures out where all the pieces fit. If we can at least limp into the playoffs with a fully healthy Houston in January, we can hang with absolutely AFC team -- except perhaps the Pats, who seem to have successfully hacked the game of football. That's our ceiling, though. Pretty exciting.
Posts: 59,693

09-29-2016, 12:31 PM	#52
Direckshun __ Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Springpatch Casino cash: $2033447	Marcus Peters is NOT a great tackler.
Posts: 59,693

09-29-2016, 12:38 PM	#54
ToxSocks Needs more middle fingers Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: San Diego Casino cash: $2033063	And again, my concerns have already been fleshed out on the field. You can't sit there and tell me it's not a problem when we've already seen it be a problem! I mean....damn?? We've already seen it! Don't tell me it's not a problem. __________________ Life is like a dick. Sometimes it gets hard for no reason, but it can't stay hard forever.
Posts: 65,925

09-29-2016, 12:43 PM	#56
O.city In Search of a Life Join Date: Jul 2009 Casino cash: $-725936	I feel like we're on a different page of a different book here detox. He does need to improve as a tackler, but tackling ability for a corner isn't as important as coverage ability for a corner. Like the houston missed tackle, the problem there was his missed tackle, but just as much so in asking a poor tackler to make that tackle. It wasn't a simple play.
Posts: 84,239

09-29-2016, 12:48 PM	#60
O.city In Search of a Life Join Date: Jul 2009 Casino cash: $-725936	I dunno, I mean, he held up the wr long enough for the calvary to arrive. Being that he's not a good tackler, isn't that what we want?
Posts: 84,239