IF: Belichick is overrated (and he is) who IS the greatest NFL head coach?

[Chris Meck]

I don't think you can count anyone from the pre-merger era, the game was so different, the league was half the size so the available talent was concentrated, and no free agency.

What are your criteria? I suppose everyone might have slightly different points to argue.

I think winning multiple Super Bowls is pretty crucial to even get in the conversation.

How about the coaching tree? Does the success of coaches that came from under their wing go on their resume? I think perhaps that should count for something.

I think getting to and/or winning multiple Super Bowls in multiple situations counts in a coach's favor.

Take Joe Gibbs, for example: He won 3 Super Bowls in 9 years with THREE different QB's. That's pretty incredible.

Walsh won three with Montana, but Siefert picked up where he left off and won two more. Holmgren and then Reid and Gruden by extension all come from that tree. Mike Shanahan, too.

Noll won 4 with Pittsburgh in 6 years.

Shula lost one with Unitas, but went 2-1 with Griese; but couldn't win one with Marino, perhaps the best pure passer in history. I kind of count that against him.


Andy Reid is 2-2 in Super Bowls; and while he didn't win one until he had a great QB, he took the solidly 'above average' Mcnabb to two and had winning seasons with all sorts of guys that were never worth a shit anywhere else. His coaching tree has also been successful, with SB wins of their own (Harbaugh, Pederson). 2-1 with Mahomes in a four season stretch is just a notch below Walsh, in my book-but only as of now. If he gets, say, 4 in 6 years to equal Noll's run with Bradshaw I think you have to seriously consider Andy.

Belichick has 6 rings, so he's the best right? I say NO.
As a head coach, without Tom Brady, he's an sub .500 coach. This is multiple seasons before AND after, with the Browns AND Patriots. His 'tree' is a laughing stock of morons that have failed league-wide. And let's not forget the cheating scandals.

So, if you ask me, it's Walsh. In terms of wins, in terms of the impact of his coaching tree.

But I might have to give an honorable mention shout-out to Gibbs; winning 3 in 9 years with three different QB's (and two had never been anything special and never would again in Doug Williams and Mark Rypien). Different game, yeah. Just saying. That's a hell of an accomplishment.

Parcells only won two, but his tree includes successes like Belichick(6) and Tom Coughlin (2).

[kevrunner]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I had forgotten that! I seem to vaguely remember reading that somewhere.

I guess technically the league hadn't merged yet, but his Packers (and they were getting long in the tooth) still won two SB's.

I just figure the SB era is the best cut-off point.

It’s just amazing how good he did with the Packers, he took over a team that was 1-10-1. His 1st year (1959) he led the Packers to their 1st winning season in 11 years, followed by 3 championships, then 2 Super Bowl wins and finished up performing a miracle with the Redskins in 1969. It’s hard to believe he was only 57 years old when he passed away.

It’s way harder to win post salary cap and having more teams in the league now, but I think Lombardi still deserves to me mentioned among the greats and I hate the Packers.

[kevrunner]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I had forgotten that! I seem to vaguely remember reading that somewhere.

I guess technically the league hadn't merged yet, but his Packers (and they were getting long in the tooth) still won two SB's.

I just figure the SB era is the best cut-off point.

It’s just amazing how good he did with the Packers, he took over a team that was 1-10-1. His 1st year (1959) he led the Packers to their 1st winning season in 11 years, followed by 3 championships, then 2 Super Bowl wins and finished up performing a miracle with the Redskins in 1969. It’s hard to believe he was only 57 years old when he passed away.

It’s way harder to win post salary cap and having more teams in the league now, but I think Lombardi still deserves to me mentioned among the greats and I hate the Packers.

[CoMoChief]

Bill Walsh.

Won 3 SB titles in a conference that had legendary teams like Gibbs Redskins, Ditkas Bears and Parcells Giants.

His off changed the game forever and also the coaching tree.

[Wallcrawler]

Had Lombardi not died so early of cancer, I think he would have led the Redskins to similar success.

The guy is the GOAT and it his name on the trophy everyone is after.

1b is Walsh. Created his own offense down to perfection and won 3 superbowls with it.

Gibbs 3 titles with 3 different qbs is a massive achievement also.


It's strange how Lombardis massive success is just handwaved away. I guess it's similar to the MJ always considered the GOAT over a guy like Bill Russel that had double the championships.


Anyone picking Andy Reid over Lombardi, Walsh, or Gibbs is simply stricken with homer bias.

[PAChiefsGuy]

He's definitely up there. Obviously not the best when it comes to drafting but if you give him talent, I mean, just look at his resume.

Some of you flip flop too much. Brady was never that good it was all due to BB's defenses. Now some of the same people are saying BB was never that good it was mostly Brady.

Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways.

[Bump]

Originally Posted by PAChiefsGuy

He's definitely up there. Obviously not the best when it comes to drafting but if you give him talent, I mean, just look at his resume.

Some of you flip flop too much. Brady was never that good it was all due to BB's defenses. Now some of the same people are saying BB was never that good it was mostly Brady.

Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways.

I've always thought Brady is one of the greatest. It's just that we hate him because he beat our favorite team a lot in the playoffs and stuff.

People from other teams basically say the same shit about Mahomes getting help from the refs. Early in his career it was 'oh but he has Andy Reid, Hill and Kelce he's not really that good'

people just tend to hate on greatness when that particular greatness isn't on your team. But the Patriots did get caught cheating a little bit so. And Chris Jones got flagged for lightly brushing Brady's shoulder in a playoff game too.

[ThyKingdomCome15]

I think the Patriots have a talent deficiency rather than a coaching issue. It took two decades of unparalleled success to get to this point. This strikes me as a knee jerk reaction.

[Rasputin]

Andy Reid had to clean up after Scott Pioli mess.


Andy Reid has never had a losing season as Chiefs Head Coach.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by ThyKingdomCome15

I think the Patriots have a talent deficiency rather than a coaching issue. It took two decades of unparalleled success to get to this point. This strikes me as a knee jerk reaction.

We have ten seasons of Belichick without Brady to judge by, and Belichick is under .500. And it's not even close to winning.

Without Brady, Belichick is not a winning coach. This is a fact. You can't have ten seasons under .500 and be the greatest.

And no doubt The Patriots have talent issues, but that's what happens when Belichick takes OG's in the first round.

The talent problems all lie at Belichick's feet.

The lack of coaching talent on Belichick's staffs lie at his feet as well.

Brady leaves and wins a SB at 42 elsewhere.

BB is a great defensive coordinator.

[crayzkirk]

I voted for Walsh...

All this talk about coaching trees has me thinking about apples; plant a seed from an apple and you are going to get a totally different tree than the parent. It might have a few characteristics that the parent tree had yet it's a totally unique tree.

The AFC is also much different now than during the BB/TB era. Their division is much more competitive as is the entire AFC.

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by PAChiefsGuy

He's definitely up there. Obviously not the best when it comes to drafting but if you give him talent, I mean, just look at his resume.

Some of you flip flop too much. Brady was never that good it was all due to BB's defenses. Now some of the same people are saying BB was never that good it was mostly Brady.

Make up your mind. You can't have it both ways.

How about both? Brady was good, but he doesn't have 7 rings without Belechick nor does Bill have 6 without Brady.

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by Bump

I've always thought Brady is one of the greatest. It's just that we hate him because he beat our favorite team a lot in the playoffs and stuff.

People from other teams basically say the same shit about Mahomes getting help from the refs. Early in his career it was 'oh but he has Andy Reid, Hill and Kelce he's not really that good'

people just tend to hate on greatness when that particular greatness isn't on your team. But the Patriots did get caught cheating a little bit so. And Chris Jones got flagged for lightly brushing Brady's shoulder in a playoff game too.

My issue with Brady is not that he was great or even that he was one of the greatest QBs ever. For me it's a product of people calling him the GOAT because of his rings as if he and he alone were the sole reason for them. He benefitted greatly from the defenses that BB gave him, but that gets overlooked. Brady and Bill were perfect for each other and the level of success they both achieved speaks to that.

[kccrow]

Joe Gibbs for me.

Was the co-architect of Air Coryell. Invented the use of trips WRs and the use of an H-back. Champion for black QBs. All changed the game as much or more than Walsh.

Adapted to personnel with a huge variety of formations to win with three different QBs.

Four NFC titles in 5 appearances, and 3 SBs in 9 years.

He could coach any squad you handed him and win with it.

[KurtCobain]

I hate to say it, and asterisks of course should be floated around for cheating but...

1. Belichick
2. Gibbs
3. Walsh
4.Lombardi
5 . Shula
6. ANDY
7. Noll

[KurtCobain]

Also, where is Shula on the poll?

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by tredadda

My issue with Brady is not that he was great or even that he was one of the greatest QBs ever. For me it's a product of people calling him the GOAT because of his rings as if he and he alone were the sole reason for them. He benefitted greatly from the defenses that BB gave him, but that gets overlooked. Brady and Bill were perfect for each other and the level of success they both achieved speaks to that.

He is the most accomplished ever. No QB has ever won more SB's.

That does not make you the best. Most QB's don't play the game until they draft social security. In fact those rules only changed, oddly, at the beginning of his time. Brady's career is a very unlikely set of circumstances that will never again be repeated.