Football IF: Belichick is overrated (and he is) who IS the greatest NFL head coach?

Chris Meck · 12-19-2023, 05:30 PM

I don't think you can count anyone from the pre-merger era, the game was so different, the league was half the size so the available talent was concentrated, and no free agency.

What are your criteria? I suppose everyone might have slightly different points to argue.

I think winning multiple Super Bowls is pretty crucial to even get in the conversation.

How about the coaching tree? Does the success of coaches that came from under their wing go on their resume? I think perhaps that should count for something.

I think getting to and/or winning multiple Super Bowls in multiple situations counts in a coach's favor.

Take Joe Gibbs, for example: He won 3 Super Bowls in 9 years with THREE different QB's. That's pretty incredible.

Walsh won three with Montana, but Siefert picked up where he left off and won two more. Holmgren and then Reid and Gruden by extension all come from that tree. Mike Shanahan, too.

Noll won 4 with Pittsburgh in 6 years.

Shula lost one with Unitas, but went 2-1 with Griese; but couldn't win one with Marino, perhaps the best pure passer in history. I kind of count that against him.

Andy Reid is 2-2 in Super Bowls; and while he didn't win one until he had a great QB, he took the solidly 'above average' Mcnabb to two and had winning seasons with all sorts of guys that were never worth a shit anywhere else. His coaching tree has also been successful, with SB wins of their own (Harbaugh, Pederson). 2-1 with Mahomes in a four season stretch is just a notch below Walsh, in my book-but only as of now. If he gets, say, 4 in 6 years to equal Noll's run with Bradshaw I think you have to seriously consider Andy.

Belichick has 6 rings, so he's the best right? I say NO.
As a head coach, without Tom Brady, he's an sub .500 coach. This is multiple seasons before AND after, with the Browns AND Patriots. His 'tree' is a laughing stock of morons that have failed league-wide. And let's not forget the cheating scandals.

So, if you ask me, it's Walsh. In terms of wins, in terms of the impact of his coaching tree.

But I might have to give an honorable mention shout-out to Gibbs; winning 3 in 9 years with three different QB's (and two had never been anything special and never would again in Doug Williams and Mark Rypien). Different game, yeah. Just saying. That's a hell of an accomplishment.

Parcells only won two, but his tree includes successes like Belichick(6) and Tom Coughlin (2).

BWillie · 12-19-2023, 05:31 PM

49ers coach from 90s

**Rain Man** · 12-19-2023, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWillie

49ers coach from 90s

Ah, yes. George Seifert.

**New World Order** · 12-19-2023, 05:34 PM

Prob Bill Walsh

tredadda · 12-19-2023, 05:35 PM

Parcells: Has a good tree below him and built winners everywhere he went. If memory serves me right I think the early Patriots dynasty was built on the foundation Parcells created.

Reid: # 4 in all time wins. #2 in playoff wins. Did it with JAG QBs and a HOF one. Went to 4 SBs winning two of them. Has something like 9-10 Conference Championship Game appearances. All this while in a salary cap era. His tree also has multiple SB winning coaches.

DRM08 · 12-19-2023, 05:37 PM

I would go with Bill Walsh because of the coaching tree and impact on the modern passing game.

FloridaMan88 · 12-19-2023, 05:37 PM

I’ll say it… Andy Reid.

No HC has had more consistent success in the modern era of the NFL than Andy.

Winning in the modern NFL with free agency, social media/media scrutiny, etc. is way more difficult than it was back in the day for Lombardi, Noll, Walsh, Parcells, etc.

Going to four straight NFC Championships with McNabb at QB.

Being the winningest HC for two franchises.

Being one of the greatest offensive minds in NFL history.

Andy is the GOAT of HC’s.

Pointer19 · 12-19-2023, 05:37 PM

If you want your child to be a winning coach, you need to name it Bill.

Chris Meck · 12-19-2023, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWillie

49ers coach from 90s

genius.

MahomesMagic · 12-19-2023, 05:40 PM

He won 3 SB's with Brady as a good passenger early with defense and special teams.

He then won the final SB by just demolishing teams, with the exception of Reid's Chiefs who had Mahomes as a first year starter. But even in that game his defense kept us out of the game for a half, giving the Patriots enough to get it done by holding on and with Dee Ford's offsides.

Then in the final SB when Brady scored 13 his defense held the Rams to 3 points.

So overrated? I guess it depends what you mean by that but he is the greatest NFL coach of all time.

Would rather have an offensive coach in this current era of football and Andy Reid is right up there with Belichick as an elite X's and O's genius, just on the offensive side of the ball.

Chris Meck · 12-19-2023, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MahomesMagic

He won 3 SB's with Brady as a good passenger early with defense and special teams.

He then won the final SB by just demolishing teams, with the exception of Reid's Chiefs who had Mahomes as a first year starter. But even in that game his defense kept us out of the game for a half, giving the Patriots enough to get it done by holding on and with Dee Ford's offsides.

Then in the final SB when Brady scored 13 his defense held the Rams to 3 points.

So overrated? I guess it depends what you mean by that but he is the greatest NFL coach of all time.

Would rather have an offensive coach in this current era of football and Andy Reid is right up there with Belichick as an elite X's and O's genius, just on the offensive side of the ball.

Without Tom Brady, he's a sub .500 coach, and a known cheater. His coaching tree is a bunch of morons that can't tie their own shoes. Brady left and immediately won another ring at 42 years old.

Andy Reid had much more success without Mahomes than Belichick has had without Tom Brady.

Bill is a good defensive mind. As a head coach, he has been a failure without Brady. Turns out the Patriot Way is to stumble onto the GOAT QB in the 6th round and profit.

NOPE.

Nope.

MahomesMagic · 12-19-2023, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

Without Tom Brady, he's a sub .500 coach, and a known cheater. His coaching tree is a bunch of morons that can't tie their own shoes. Brady left and immediately won another ring at 42 years old.

Andy Reid had much more success without Mahomes than Belichick has had without Tom Brady.

NOPE.

Nope.

Every HOF, great coach has had a great QB.

That's how it works.

RunKC · 12-19-2023, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KCChiefsFan88

I’ll say it… Andy Reid.

No HC has had more consistent success in the modern era of the NFL than Andy.

Winning in the modern NFL with free agency, social media/media scrutiny, etc. is way more difficult than it was back in the day for Lombardi, Noll, Walsh, Parcells, etc.

Going to four straight NFC Championships with McNabb at QB.

Being the winningest HC for two franchises.

Being one of the greatest offensive minds in NFL history.

Andy is the GOAT of HC’s.

If he can win at least 2 more rings then I agree but Andy is from the Bill Walsh tree and Bill created the WCO and got so much success from a 3rd rd QB.

I can't take anyone over Bill right now.

Edit: walsh was gone during the Steve Young years

GloucesterChief · 12-19-2023, 05:46 PM

Paul Brown has a case. National championships at the high school and college level, three NFL titles, and his coaching tree includes Noll, Shula, and Walsh.

Chris Meck · 12-19-2023, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MahomesMagic

Every HOF, great coach has had a great QB.

That's how it works.

Not always true, and you didn't read my post apparently.

How about Joe Gibbs, who won 3 in a 9 year span with two bums and a Thiesmann?

Just as an example.

Andy couldn't win the big one with bums, but he sure won a lot of games and got to a lot of conference championships without an elite QB.

View Poll Results: If Belichick is overrated, who IS the great NFL Head coach?
Lombardi, with his two wins in addition to eleventy billion championships before the SB era	8	6.40%
Bill Belichick, because I like cheating losers	10	8.00%
Bill Walsh for changing the game, winning 3, and his coaching tree	40	32.00%
Bill Parcells, who won 2, but his tree has won many since	3	2.40%
Andy Reid, with multiple wins, multiple trips with two QB's and a tree with wins as well	60	48.00%
Chuck Noll, 4 in 6 years is TIIIIIIGHT.	4	3.20%
Joe Gibbs, 3 in 9 years with 3 different QB's, two of which were bums and the third is mostly remembered for a disgusting broken leg	10	8.00%
Somebody else, because I just like to argue.	3	2.40%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 125. You may not vote on this poll

12-19-2023, 05:30 PM
Chris Meck MVP Join Date: May 2001 Location: midtown KC Casino cash: $-1205090	IF: Belichick is overrated (and he is) who IS the greatest NFL head coach? I don't think you can count anyone from the pre-merger era, the game was so different, the league was half the size so the available talent was concentrated, and no free agency. What are your criteria? I suppose everyone might have slightly different points to argue. I think winning multiple Super Bowls is pretty crucial to even get in the conversation. How about the coaching tree? Does the success of coaches that came from under their wing go on their resume? I think perhaps that should count for something. I think getting to and/or winning multiple Super Bowls in multiple situations counts in a coach's favor. Take Joe Gibbs, for example: He won 3 Super Bowls in 9 years with THREE different QB's. That's pretty incredible. Walsh won three with Montana, but Siefert picked up where he left off and won two more. Holmgren and then Reid and Gruden by extension all come from that tree. Mike Shanahan, too. Noll won 4 with Pittsburgh in 6 years. Shula lost one with Unitas, but went 2-1 with Griese; but couldn't win one with Marino, perhaps the best pure passer in history. I kind of count that against him. Andy Reid is 2-2 in Super Bowls; and while he didn't win one until he had a great QB, he took the solidly 'above average' Mcnabb to two and had winning seasons with all sorts of guys that were never worth a shit anywhere else. His coaching tree has also been successful, with SB wins of their own (Harbaugh, Pederson). 2-1 with Mahomes in a four season stretch is just a notch below Walsh, in my book-but only as of now. If he gets, say, 4 in 6 years to equal Noll's run with Bradshaw I think you have to seriously consider Andy. Belichick has 6 rings, so he's the best right? I say NO. As a head coach, without Tom Brady, he's an sub .500 coach. This is multiple seasons before AND after, with the Browns AND Patriots. His 'tree' is a laughing stock of morons that have failed league-wide. And let's not forget the cheating scandals. So, if you ask me, it's Walsh. In terms of wins, in terms of the impact of his coaching tree. But I might have to give an honorable mention shout-out to Gibbs; winning 3 in 9 years with three different QB's (and two had never been anything special and never would again in Doug Williams and Mark Rypien). Different game, yeah. Just saying. That's a hell of an accomplishment. Parcells only won two, but his tree includes successes like Belichick(6) and Tom Coughlin (2).
Posts: 19,436

12-19-2023, 05:34 PM	#4
New World Order Choco Favre Join Date: Jul 2012 Casino cash: $-1065235	Prob Bill Walsh
Posts: 32,145	2 0

12-19-2023, 05:35 PM	#5
tredadda Three-Pat Join Date: May 2011 Location: Colorado Springs Casino cash: $-1824947	Parcells: Has a good tree below him and built winners everywhere he went. If memory serves me right I think the early Patriots dynasty was built on the foundation Parcells created. Reid: # 4 in all time wins. #2 in playoff wins. Did it with JAG QBs and a HOF one. Went to 4 SBs winning two of them. Has something like 9-10 Conference Championship Game appearances. All this while in a salary cap era. His tree also has multiple SB winning coaches.
Posts: 19,252	2 0

12-19-2023, 05:37 PM	#6
DRM08 In Search of a Life Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Texas Casino cash: $-989600	I would go with Bill Walsh because of the coaching tree and impact on the modern passing game.
Posts: 20,496	3 0

12-19-2023, 05:31 PM	#2
BWillie Are you ready to Rumble? Join Date: Apr 2006 Casino cash: $-1298759	49ers coach from 90s
Posts: 52,600

12-19-2023, 05:37 PM	#7
FloridaMan88 Mahomes: We Are All Witnesses Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Miami, FL Casino cash: $-577094	I’ll say it… Andy Reid. No HC has had more consistent success in the modern era of the NFL than Andy. Winning in the modern NFL with free agency, social media/media scrutiny, etc. is way more difficult than it was back in the day for Lombardi, Noll, Walsh, Parcells, etc. Going to four straight NFC Championships with McNabb at QB. Being the winningest HC for two franchises. Being one of the greatest offensive minds in NFL history. Andy is the GOAT of HC’s.
Posts: 49,802	5 0

12-19-2023, 05:37 PM	#8
Pointer19 Veteran Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Casino cash: $4313400	If you want your child to be a winning coach, you need to name it Bill. __________________ Dilly Dilly!
Posts: 2,656	2 0

12-19-2023, 05:40 PM	#10
MahomesMagic Generational Player Join Date: May 2017 Location: Honolulu Casino cash: $500400	He won 3 SB's with Brady as a good passenger early with defense and special teams. He then won the final SB by just demolishing teams, with the exception of Reid's Chiefs who had Mahomes as a first year starter. But even in that game his defense kept us out of the game for a half, giving the Patriots enough to get it done by holding on and with Dee Ford's offsides. Then in the final SB when Brady scored 13 his defense held the Rams to 3 points. So overrated? I guess it depends what you mean by that but he is the greatest NFL coach of all time. Would rather have an offensive coach in this current era of football and Andy Reid is right up there with Belichick as an elite X's and O's genius, just on the offensive side of the ball.
Posts: 9,990	3 3

12-19-2023, 05:46 PM	#14
GloucesterChief MVP Join Date: Jan 2013 Casino cash: $-1843546	Paul Brown has a case. National championships at the high school and college level, three NFL titles, and his coaching tree includes Noll, Shula, and Walsh.
Posts: 13,281	5 0