Haley versus McDaniels

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Originally Posted by htismaqe

Read what he wrote.

"Please understand, I hate Matt Cassel. But I really like the thought of bringing in McDaniels to work with Matt Cassel."

Passive.

Aggressive.

I don't remember writing that. If you could, do me a favor and quote the post that I did that in and just bold that part for me.

Thanks.

Hate is a strong word for my feelings towards Cassel. I would like him replaced. I would like a franchise QB. But, to excuse Haley's shortcomings because of Cassel is foolish. Weis and McDaniels have proven that you can have a decent,if not great, offense with Cassel.

That isn't to say I want Cassel here or even McDaniels. (other than as OC) It is just to point out how inept Haley has been.

It isn't like Haley has no say in personnel. Cassel may not be his ideal QB, but, if he hate him as much as this board thinks....If he really felt like he couldn't have an offense that he wanted with Cassel..... Cassel wouldn't be here.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by SensibleChiefsfan

I don't remember writing that. If you could, do me a favor and quote the post that I did that in and just bold that part for me.

Thanks.

Hate is a strong word for my feelings towards Cassel. I would like him replaced. I would like a franchise QB. But, to excuse Haley's shortcomings because of Cassel is foolish. Weis and McDaniels have proven that you can have a decent,if not great, offense with Cassel.

That isn't to say I want Cassel here or even McDaniels. (other than as OC) It is just to point out how inept Haley has been.

It isn't like Haley has no say in personnel. Cassel may not be his ideal QB, but, if he hate him as much as this board thinks....If he really felt like he couldn't have an offense that he wanted with Cassel..... Cassel wouldn't be here.

You think the difference between Cassel in 2007 and 2009 is Weis and McDaniels?

See, I'm in the 'talent wins football games' camp. KC succeeded offensively because of Jamaal Charles. Since Haley arrived (meaning Cassel's career in KC) Kc averages 20 PPG with Charles in the lineup. We average 13 PPG without him.

Charles makes a bigger difference than an OC.

1 good WR being thrown to by a garbage QB is what we have on offense. That's it.

Same thing in NE. McDaniels didn't make Cassel look good. Moss and Welker did.

Talent wins games in this league.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

You think the difference between Cassel in 2007 and 2009 is Weis and McDaniels?

See, I'm in the 'talent wins football games' camp. KC succeeded offensively because of Jamaal Charles. Since Haley arrived (meaning Cassel's career in KC) Kc averages 20 PPG with Charles in the lineup. We average 13 PPG without him.

Charles makes a bigger difference than an OC.

1 good WR being thrown to by a garbage QB is what we have on offense. That's it.

Same thing in NE. McDaniels didn't make Cassel look good. Moss and Welker did.

Talent wins games in this league.

Charles was here in 2009 for the whole season. The Chiefs scored 18.4 points.

In 2010, the Chiefs scored 22.9. Again, JC was here the whole season.

In 2011, the Chiefs are averaging 15.65 points per game with Cassel in.

JC played the first game in which the Chiefs scored seven points.

As far as Moss/Welker. Yes, they are great. But, McDaniels was able to get over 25 points a game out of a Cassel led offense. You think he would struggle this much with Cassel along with Bowe, Breaston, Baldwin, and McCluster?

Heck, McCluster would probably look like a legit second round pick if we had McDaniels calling the plays instead of Staley Haley.

Heck, look at what he was able to do with Brandon freaking LLoyd and Eddie Royal.

So, to sum it up, yes, I think that Haley is the biggest problem on this offense.

That isn't completely true. I think that Haley doesn't have enough time to be HC and OC and I don't think he can work with a good offensive coordinator.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by SensibleChiefsfan

Charles was here in 2009 for the whole season. The Chiefs scored 18.4 points.

In 2010, the Chiefs scored 22.9. Again, JC was here the whole season.

In 2011, the Chiefs are averaging 15.65 points per game with Cassel in.

JC played the first game in which the Chiefs scored seven points.

As far as Moss/Welker. Yes, they are great. But, McDaniels was able to get over 25 points a game out of a Cassel led offense. You think he would struggle this much with Cassel along with Bowe, Breaston, Baldwin, and McCluster?

Heck, McCluster would probably look like a legit second round pick if we had McDaniels calling the plays instead of Staley Haley.

Heck, look at what he was able to do with Brandon freaking LLoyd and Eddie Royal.

So, to sum it up, yes, I think that Haley is the biggest problem on this offense.

That isn't completely true. I think that Haley doesn't have enough time to be HC and OC and I don't think he can work with a good offensive coordinator.

Charles barely played until the games against the Jags. Obviously him being on the bench is not what I meant. I'm rather disappointed I have to explain that.

The numbers are there. 20 PPG with charles, 13 PPG without him.

Using him for 2 carries or returning kicks does not count in my eyes. Sorry champ. Charles was a difference maker.

McCluster is not good. You guys need to just accept that he's a slow 5-7 RB who can't break or elude tackles. It's not coaching. He's just not that good. He's a shitty version of Dante Hall. A smaller, slower, less elusive version of Hall. A gadget player without the talent to fill that role. He's not an impact player. He's proven that over the course of 2 seasons. We get him in space over and over and he does NOTHING.

Again, you think the NFL is all about coaching. I'm still sticking with talent. KC would have won no more than 6 games without Charles last season and Weis AND Cassel would have been terrible.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

Charles barely played until the games against the Jags. Obviously him being on the bench is not what I meant. I'm rather disappointed I have to explain that.

Part of being a coach and an offensive coordinator is using the talent to the best of their abilities.

JC riding the bench is on Haley. To think that you would use this as an excuse FOR Haley is astounding.

[FAX]

Originally Posted by SensibleChiefsfan

Part of being a coach and an offensive coordinator is using the talent to the best of their abilities.

JC riding the bench is on Haley. To think that you would use this as an excuse FOR Haley is astounding.

If you recall, Jamaal was putting the ball on the ground a heck of a lot back in those dark days. People who attended camp were talking about it. He was fumbling every second touch.

FAX

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by SensibleChiefsfan

Part of being a coach and an offensive coordinator is using the talent to the best of their abilities.

JC riding the bench is on Haley. To think that you would use this as an excuse FOR Haley is astounding.

I'm not excusing Haley's personnel decisions at all. You're just trying to change the target.

You were talking about his offensive system and ability as a coordinator. I'm pointing out that our offensive success has been more tied to the playing time of Jamaal Charles than who our OC is.

Haley has all kinds of problems, but unless we address the TALENT issue we're just treading water.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

Again, you think the NFL is all about coaching. I'm still sticking with talent. KC would have won no more than 6 games without Charles last season and Weis AND Cassel would have been terrible.

How many times do you see a team do a quick turnaround when a new coach is brought in?

Look at the 49ers this year. I still see the same shitty QB that they have had for years starting there.

See, good coaches are able to identify talent. Then, they are able to use that talent to the best of the players ability.

Do you think that JC rides the bench for the first half of McDaniels first season in KC?

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by SensibleChiefsfan

How many times do you see a team do a quick turnaround when a new coach is brought in?

Look at the 49ers this year. I still see the same shitty QB that they have had for years starting there.

See, good coaches are able to identify talent. Then, they are able to use that talent to the best of the players ability.

Do you think that JC rides the bench for the first half of McDaniels first season in KC?

Yes. That's a hypothetical that cannot be proven, but LJ was entrenched in the starting RB spot. Over at another chiefs site I started driving the 'start Charles' bandwagon in 2008 and it was lonely. A lot of Chief fans in the 2009 preseason said he was outplayed by Battle and Savage and should have been cut (we kept 4 RB's).

The issue I'm debating isn't if coaches can have an impact. The issue I'm debating is whether coaching ALONE improves our current roster as of today into a good team. I do not believe it does. You, apparently, do. We're just probably not going to agree here.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

Yes. That's a hypothetical that cannot be proven, but LJ was entrenched in the starting RB spot. Over at another chiefs site I started driving the 'start Charles' bandwagon in 2008 and it was lonely. A lot of Chief fans in the 2009 preseason said he was outplayed by Battle and Savage and should have been cut (we kept 4 RB's).

The issue I'm debating isn't if coaches can have an impact. The issue I'm debating is whether coaching ALONE improves our current roster as of today into a good team. I do not believe it does. You, apparently, do. We're just probably not going to agree here.

I think coaching can have a bigger impact than any one player.

I understand that talent matters in the NFL. But, frankly, if one of the most talented backs in the league is sitting on the bench for half the season, I will not use it to excuse the HC/OC's lack of offense.

It is up to the coach to use the talent that is here to the best of their ability.

[SenselessChiefsFan]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

McCluster is not good. You guys need to just accept that he's a slow 5-7 RB who can't break or elude tackles. It's not coaching. He's just not that good. He's a shitty version of Dante Hall. A smaller, slower, less elusive version of Hall. A gadget player without the talent to fill that role. He's not an impact player. He's proven that over the course of 2 seasons. We get him in space over and over and he does NOTHING.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...or-nfl-scouts/

McCluster is not as fast as Hall. But, he has run a 4.4. He isn't slow.

McCluster is about the same height as Hall, but a little less stout.

However, McCluster is much faster than Wes Welker. I just think that McDaniels would be able to put him in similar situations to Welker. Situations that could help him be more effective.

Look at Wes Welker's career before he got to New England. He had played in the NFL for four years prior to getting traded to New England.

Hey, it is always a combination of talent and coaches. I just think you can look around the NFL and see a ton of quick turnarounds by good coaches being added to teams.

As I said earlier, the 9ers are probably the easiest and best example of this in the current season.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by SensibleChiefsfan

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...or-nfl-scouts/

McCluster is not as fast as Hall. But, he has run a 4.4. He isn't slow.

McCluster is about the same height as Hall, but a little less stout.

However, McCluster is much faster than Wes Welker. I just think that McDaniels would be able to put him in similar situations to Welker. Situations that could help him be more effective.

Look at Wes Welker's career before he got to New England. He had played in the NFL for four years prior to getting traded to New England.

Hey, it is always a combination of talent and coaches. I just think you can look around the NFL and see a ton of quick turnarounds by good coaches being added to teams.

As I said earlier, the 9ers are probably the easiest and best example of this in the current season.

40 yard dash time is not the same as on field speed.

You know who was REALLY fast but never once got behind a defense or outran anyone? Sammie Parker. Yanno why? Not everyone carries that equipment the same. I haven't seen McCluster outrun anyone since opening day of 2010 when it was raining. He may run a 4.4 on track in shorts and no shirt... but the NFL is different and he's not a blazer on the field. I think assuming he can be Wes Welkerish is a bit much. I mean it was optimism when he was drafted to think that, but now? C'mon man.

You can also see team turn arounds by home-run draft picks that often accompany that new coach. Cowher was just Marty Jr. until they drafted Ben. We can debate this all day, but it's just a circular argument at this stage and we should probably stop.