HOF & 3 Coaches

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

Don't get me wrong - I understand why Marv is there... I just don't understand why Reeves isn't there yet, based on how quickly they put Marv in the HOF.

Dan Reeves went to three SBs in twelve years with a QB who most consider to be top 3 all time, and there is some perception that Reeves held him back to some extent.

Levy, on the other hand went to 4 SBs in 12 years with the Bills, and most think that he was innovative, and that he had a hand in developing Jim Kelly inot a HoF QB.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by milkman

Dan Reeves went to three SBs in twelve years with a QB who most consider to be top 3 all time, and there is some perception that Reeves held him back to some extent.

Levy, on the other hand went to 4 SBs in 12 years with the Bills, and most think that he was innovative, and that he had a hand in developing Jim Kelly inot a HoF QB.

True... Reeves took two teams (one with a journeyman QB) to the SB. There's just not that much difference between the two to me and would put Reeves a tick higher than Levy.

[Amnorix]

I havent' looked at any of their records that closely, but to me they all belong in the Hall of Pretty Damn Good.

Consider that they went to the SBs mostly during an era of NFC SB dominance. Most of the time they went ot the SB, it was as the best team in a relatively weak conference, and not as literally the second best team in the league.

53% win percentage impresses me not at all, though an analysis of how many yeasr were spent turning around a program needs to be taken into consideration. 53% wins with 2 teams is different than with 4 teams, if he took 4 teams from bad/mediocre/average and made them significantly better.

But when you talk great NFL coaches, I don't really put any of those guys on my list.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

I havent' looked at any of their records that closely, but to me they all belong in the Hall of Pretty Damn Good.

Consider that they went to the SBs mostly during an era of NFC SB dominance. Most of the time they went ot the SB, it was as the best team in a relatively weak conference, and not as literally the second best team in the league.

53% win percentage impresses me not at all, though an analysis of how many yeasr were spent turning around a program needs to be taken into consideration. 53% wins with 2 teams is different than with 4 teams, if he took 4 teams from bad/mediocre/average and made them significantly better.

But when you talk great NFL coaches, I don't really put any of those guys on my list.

I think I could argue both sides of the argument for all 3 of them...

There are really only a handful of elite coaches, none of the 3 fit. But, while the HOF should = elite for every category, it does not.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

There are really only a handful of elite coaches, none of the 3 fit. But, while the HOF should = elite for every category, it does not.

It does in my mind. Lynn Swann would've been inducted over my rotting corpse. I'm a stickler across the board:

Pete Rose - NO
Shoeless Joe - NO
Lynn Swann - NO
Dan freaking Reeves - NO

If you don't have at least a couple SB rings in your collection as a coach, you better impress the hell out of me as to why. Or else have something else to put on the resume, like a Dick LeBeau.

Hall of Fame coaches are guys like Gibbs, Walsh, Parcells, Lombardi, Landry, Shula, Brown, Noll and Belichick. Guys that defined the job and were outstanding at it for a prolonged period.

53% regular season record despite lengthy stays with the clubs he coached, and no Super Bowl victories? Not even close, in my mind.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

Hall of Fame coaches are guys like Gibbs, Walsh, Parcells, Lombardi, Landry, Shula, Brown, Noll and Belichick. Guys that defined the job and were outstanding at it for a prolonged period.

If you're putting Belichick in there with those guys, you have to include Shanahan.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

If you're putting Belichick in there with those guys, you have to include Shanahan.

I think Shanarat is a HELL of a coach. Unfortunately, he was not a hell of a GM. I don't think the world sees him at quite the level of the guys I mentioned, but without reviewing his record I'd still think he's a HOF coach. He's got the multiple rings and was consistently extremely good for a very long time.

[Chief Chief]

Ya remember that time when Dan Reeves took the 1999 Atlanta Falcons to Miami to face the Denver Broncos in the Super Bowl?Do ya remember that?Ya remember when Eugene Robinson of that same Atlanta team got the Bart Starr Award by the religious group Athletes In Action for being a person who displays high morale character?
Do ya remember that?
Do ya remember when later that same day that he got that award and he offered a prostitute $40 for oral sex but the prostitute wasn't a prostitute but instead was a female police officer dressed as a prostitute?
Ya remember that?
Well, I remember something that you don't remember at all:
That same police officer was really Dan Reeves dressed in drag and trolling...

...which explains his delay in entering the HOF...

[Amnorix]

To humor anyone who cares, I took a look at Reeves. The answer is no.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/ReevDa0.htm

Denver was up and down with him. Some great years, some mediocre years, even though he had some pretty damn great talent htere.

Took an aging but very good Giants team and took them in the wrong direction. Had one really good year out of SEVEN with the Falcons.

53% win total overall.

No SB wins, no special contribution to the game (unlike Levy and the no huddle) that I can think of.

I just don't see it.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

To humor anyone who cares, I took a look at Reeves. The answer is no.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/ReevDa0.htm

Denver was up and down with him. Some great years, some mediocre years, even though he had some pretty damn great talent htere.

Took an aging but very good Giants team and took them in the wrong direction. Had one really good year out of SEVEN with the Falcons.

53% win total overall.

No SB wins, no special contribution to the game (unlike Levy and the no huddle) that I can think of.

I just don't see it.

Reeves and the Elway era is similar to Belichick and the Brady era. The difference being, NE had a defense in the Brady years where DEN did not during the Reeves' years.

Belichick prior to Brady was Reeves after Elway.

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

To humor anyone who cares, I took a look at Reeves. The answer is no.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/ReevDa0.htm

Denver was up and down with him. Some great years, some mediocre years, even though he had some pretty damn great talent htere.

Took an aging but very good Giants team and took them in the wrong direction. Had one really good year out of SEVEN with the Falcons.

53% win total overall.

No SB wins, no special contribution to the game (unlike Levy and the no huddle) that I can think of.

I just don't see it.

I would argue that the Donkeys didn't really have all that much talent outside of Elway.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by milkman

I would argue that the Donkeys didn't really have all that much talent outside of Elway.

The Pro Bowl / All-Pro voters would disagree.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...n/all-pros.htm

Reeves coached Denver from '81-92. Were there a bunch of other HOFers? No. But there was very solid talent.

Belichick has dominated the NFL for years with one all-world QB and a bunch of "very solid talent" that isn't likely to get into the HOF either. Seymour, maybe. Vinatieri, maybe. Moss, obviously, but none of the SBs involved him (yet).

[milkman]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

The Pro Bowl / All-Pro voters would disagree.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...n/all-pros.htm

Reeves coached Denver from '81-92. Were there a bunch of other HOFers? No. But there was very solid talent.

Belichick has dominated the NFL for years with one all-world QB and a bunch of "very solid talent" that isn't likely to get into the HOF either. Seymour, maybe. Vinatieri, maybe. Moss, obviously, but none of the SBs involved him (yet).

Gradishar, Mecklinburg, Upchurch all overrated players that won poularity contests.

Upchurch, Van Johnson and Ricky Nattiel all had difficulty in getting separation, and Elway made them all look better than they were cause he could bought time so often with his legs.

The only players that Elway played with in his career who are worthy of HoF consideration are Steve Atwater, Sharpe and Terrell Davis, and he won't shouldn't get in because of his lack of longevity.

[Amnorix]

Originally Posted by milkman

Gradishar, Mecklinburg, Upchurch all overrated players that won poularity contests.

Upchurch, Van Johnson and Ricky Nattiel all had difficulty in getting separation, and Elway made them all look better than they were cause he could bought time so often with his legs.

The only players that Elway played with in his career who are worthy of HoF consideration are Steve Atwater, Sharpe and Terrell Davis, and he won't shouldn't get in because of his lack of longevity.

Yeah, how many HOFers has Belichick had to team with Brady? Moss is the only clear-cut one, and he wasnt' involved in the three SB wins. Maybe Vinatieri as a fan favorite, but he's a freaking kicker. I'm ignoring guys at the end of their rope like Junior Seau.

So Belichick has 3 with the all world QB and a bunch of good players, and Reeves has zero.

[Valiant]

Originally Posted by Amnorix

The Pro Bowl / All-Pro voters would disagree.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...n/all-pros.htm

Reeves coached Denver from '81-92. Were there a bunch of other HOFers? No. But there was very solid talent.

Belichick has dominated the NFL for years with one all-world QB and a bunch of "very solid talent" that isn't likely to get into the HOF either. Seymour, maybe. Vinatieri, maybe. Moss, obviously, but none of the SBs involved him (yet).

Wow there are more defenders on that list then I thought during the 80's... Someone just told me the only reason they did not win the superbowls in the 80's was defense.. huh...