Football HOF & 3 Coaches - Page 2

Mile High Mania · 08-19-2009, 08:26 AM

Ok, so during some down time the last week I was watching one of the many "Top 10" segments on NFLN. In one of them, they were talking about coaches... the reference was made about Levy being in the HOF and compared him to guys like Reeves and Marty. I would think that both of them are locks for the HOF, so I was looking at their numbers.

Is it just a matter of time for these two? What are your thoughts? I guess my question is why was Marv such a sure fire HOF'er and Dan Reeves with more wins and a nearly identical playoff record ... is waiting longer?

Also, while the playoff numbers kill Marty... shouldn't he be considered?

Marv Levy
Last season was 1997 - inducted in 2001

17 years as a HC / 143 wins and 112 losses
11-8 playoff record
0-4 SB record (1 team)
10 seasons at or above .500

Dan Reeves
Last season was 2003 -

23 years as a HC / 190 wins and 165 losses and 2 ties
11-9 playoff record
0-4 SB record (2 teams)
14 seasons at or above .500

Marty Schottenheimer
Last season was 2006 -

21 years as a HC / 200 wins and 126 losses and 1 tie
5-13 playoff record
0 SB
18 seasons at or above .500

Mile High Mania · 08-19-2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaKCMan AP

Actually, the way the HOF bylaws reads, 2009 was the first class Reeves was eligible.

Who do you think he deserved to get in over: Bruce Smith, Ralph Wilson Jr, Rod Woodson, Derrick Thomas, Randall McDaniel, Bob Hayes.

The only arguable person would be Wilson Jr but he was nominated by the senior committee, IIRC.

Levy's class in 2001 was weaker, IMO: Nick Buoniconti, Mike Munchak, Jackie Slater, Lynn Swann, Ron Yary, Jack Youngblood.

I didn't consider the weakness of the Levy class... but, looking ahead, the talent pool of potential HOF'ers gets pretty deep. Hopefully, he won't wait long.

**DaKCMan AP** · 08-19-2009, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

I didn't consider the weakness of the Levy class... but, looking ahead, the talent pool of potential HOF'ers gets pretty deep. Hopefully, he won't wait long.

That's the problem for many guys. The next few years are STACKED.

milkman · 08-19-2009, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

True... Reeves took two teams (one with a journeyman QB) to the SB. There's just not that much difference between the two to me and would put Reeves a tick higher than Levy.

Not me.

Levy showed a flexibility in his philosphy that you simply don't see that often in coaching.

He adjusted his plan to get the most out of the talent he had to work with.

Would anyone have thought that the guy who brought back the Wing T in KC would be the same guy that would have a high flying no huddle offense?

Reeves is a tick above Marty in my opinion, and a couple of steps below Marv.

That might be the most homerish post ever from you.

Amnorix · 08-19-2009, 09:09 AM

I havent' looked at any of their records that closely, but to me they all belong in the Hall of Pretty Damn Good.

Consider that they went to the SBs mostly during an era of NFC SB dominance. Most of the time they went ot the SB, it was as the best team in a relatively weak conference, and not as literally the second best team in the league.

53% win percentage impresses me not at all, though an analysis of how many yeasr were spent turning around a program needs to be taken into consideration. 53% wins with 2 teams is different than with 4 teams, if he took 4 teams from bad/mediocre/average and made them significantly better.

But when you talk great NFL coaches, I don't really put any of those guys on my list.

Chief Chief · 08-19-2009, 09:11 AM

Ya remember that time when Dan Reeves took the 1999 Atlanta Falcons to Miami to face the Denver Broncos in the Super Bowl?Do ya remember that?Ya remember when Eugene Robinson of that same Atlanta team got the Bart Starr Award by the religious group Athletes In Action for being a person who displays high morale character?
Do ya remember that?
Do ya remember when later that same day that he got that award and he offered a prostitute $40 for oral sex but the prostitute wasn't a prostitute but instead was a female police officer dressed as a prostitute?
Ya remember that?
Well, I remember something that you don't remember at all:
That same police officer was really Dan Reeves dressed in drag and trolling...

...which explains his delay in entering the HOF...

RippedmyFlesh · 08-19-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

I think Dan Reeves might get in, but no way in hell should the coach with the worst playoff record in NFL history get in.

I think that we(chief's fans) felt the pain of those playoff loses while a non-chiefs fan might think marty was just snake bit in the playoffs( the fumble...the kicker never to be mentioned...)
Not that I think it's right just trying to see things from the other side of the fence.
They(non-chiefs fan) would likely remember the good regular seasons more so than we would.
To me marty was the football version of Gene Mauch with a better regular season record.

Amnorix · 08-19-2009, 09:15 AM

To humor anyone who cares, I took a look at Reeves. The answer is no.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/ReevDa0.htm

Denver was up and down with him. Some great years, some mediocre years, even though he had some pretty damn great talent htere.

Took an aging but very good Giants team and took them in the wrong direction. Had one really good year out of SEVEN with the Falcons.

53% win total overall.

No SB wins, no special contribution to the game (unlike Levy and the no huddle) that I can think of.

I just don't see it.

Mile High Mania · 08-19-2009, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

I havent' looked at any of their records that closely, but to me they all belong in the Hall of Pretty Damn Good.

Consider that they went to the SBs mostly during an era of NFC SB dominance. Most of the time they went ot the SB, it was as the best team in a relatively weak conference, and not as literally the second best team in the league.

53% win percentage impresses me not at all, though an analysis of how many yeasr were spent turning around a program needs to be taken into consideration. 53% wins with 2 teams is different than with 4 teams, if he took 4 teams from bad/mediocre/average and made them significantly better.

But when you talk great NFL coaches, I don't really put any of those guys on my list.

I think I could argue both sides of the argument for all 3 of them...

There are really only a handful of elite coaches, none of the 3 fit. But, while the HOF should = elite for every category, it does not.

Mile High Mania · 08-19-2009, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

To humor anyone who cares, I took a look at Reeves. The answer is no.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/ReevDa0.htm

Denver was up and down with him. Some great years, some mediocre years, even though he had some pretty damn great talent htere.

Took an aging but very good Giants team and took them in the wrong direction. Had one really good year out of SEVEN with the Falcons.

53% win total overall.

No SB wins, no special contribution to the game (unlike Levy and the no huddle) that I can think of.

I just don't see it.

Reeves and the Elway era is similar to Belichick and the Brady era. The difference being, NE had a defense in the Brady years where DEN did not during the Reeves' years.

Belichick prior to Brady was Reeves after Elway.

Amnorix · 08-19-2009, 09:20 AM

Reviewed Schottenheimer's record. It's much more of what I expect to see from a HOF coach (compare to Reeves).

Takes a Browns team and improves it. Takes a Chiefs team and improves it. Ignore one aberrant year with that idiot Snyder in Washington. Takes a Chargers team and improves it.

61% win percentage.

The only knock, obviously, is no SB appearances/wins.

**DaKCMan AP** · 08-19-2009, 09:20 AM

Another question: Why do so many consider Tim Brown a 1st ballot HOF but not Cris Carter?

Tim Brown:
16 seasons
255 games
1094 receptions
14934 yards
100 TDs
13.7 yards/reception
4555 return yards
3 return TDs
9 Pro Bowls (6 consecutive)
0x All-Pro

Cris Carter:
16 seasons
234 games
1101 receptions
13899 yards
130 TDs
12.6 yards/reception
8 straight Pro-Bowls
2x All-Pro

milkman · 08-19-2009, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RippedmyFlesh

I think that we(chief's fans) felt the pain of those playoff loses while a non-chiefs fan might think marty was just snake bit in the playoffs( the fumble...the kicker never to be mentioned...)
Not that I think it's right just trying to see things from the other side of the fence.
They(non-chiefs fan) would likely remember the good regular seasons more so than we would.

Maybe.

However, if you are a HoF voter, when you look at his record and see his overall playoff record, and see that his teams failed to take advantage of homefield advantage 6 times(?), 7 times(?), I don't think you vote for him.

Again, using Chuck Knox, he had the same kind of regular season success, and a better overall playoff record and hasn't sniffed the hall.

I just can't see Marty getting in.

milkman · 08-19-2009, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amnorix

To humor anyone who cares, I took a look at Reeves. The answer is no.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/ReevDa0.htm

Denver was up and down with him. Some great years, some mediocre years, even though he had some pretty damn great talent htere.

Took an aging but very good Giants team and took them in the wrong direction. Had one really good year out of SEVEN with the Falcons.

53% win total overall.

No SB wins, no special contribution to the game (unlike Levy and the no huddle) that I can think of.

I just don't see it.

I would argue that the Donkeys didn't really have all that much talent outside of Elway.

milkman · 08-19-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaKCMan AP

Another question: Why do so many consider Tim Brown a 1st ballot HOF but not Cris Carter?

Tim Brown:
16 seasons
255 games
1094 receptions
14934 yards
100 TDs
13.7 yards/reception
4555 return yards
3 return TDs
9 Pro Bowls (6 consecutive)
0x All-Pro

Cris Carter:
16 seasons
234 games
1101 receptions
13899 yards
130 TDs
12.6 yards/reception
8 straight Pro-Bowls
2x All-Pro

Don't know the answer to that.

Brown was good, but I would argue that Carter is better, by far.

Mile High Mania · 08-19-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaKCMan AP

Another question: Why do so many consider Tim Brown a 1st ballot HOF but not Cris Carter?

Tim Brown:
16 seasons
255 games
1094 receptions
14934 yards
100 TDs
13.7 yards/reception
4555 return yards
3 return TDs
9 Pro Bowls (6 consecutive)
0x All-Pro

Cris Carter:
16 seasons
234 games
1101 receptions
13899 yards
130 TDs
12.6 yards/reception
8 straight Pro-Bowls
2x All-Pro

I totally agree... next year could have an AMAZING HOF class.

08-19-2009, 08:26 AM
Mile High Mania #triggering Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Tejas Casino cash: $907229	HOF & 3 Coaches Ok, so during some down time the last week I was watching one of the many "Top 10" segments on NFLN. In one of them, they were talking about coaches... the reference was made about Levy being in the HOF and compared him to guys like Reeves and Marty. I would think that both of them are locks for the HOF, so I was looking at their numbers. Is it just a matter of time for these two? What are your thoughts? I guess my question is why was Marv such a sure fire HOF'er and Dan Reeves with more wins and a nearly identical playoff record ... is waiting longer? Also, while the playoff numbers kill Marty... shouldn't he be considered? Marv Levy Last season was 1997 - inducted in 2001 17 years as a HC / 143 wins and 112 losses 11-8 playoff record 0-4 SB record (1 team) 10 seasons at or above .500 Dan Reeves Last season was 2003 - 23 years as a HC / 190 wins and 165 losses and 2 ties 11-9 playoff record 0-4 SB record (2 teams) 14 seasons at or above .500 Marty Schottenheimer Last season was 2006 - 21 years as a HC / 200 wins and 126 losses and 1 tie 5-13 playoff record 0 SB 18 seasons at or above .500
Posts: 30,910

08-19-2009, 09:09 AM	#19
Amnorix In BB I trust Join Date: May 2003 Location: Boston, Mass. Casino cash: $10029808	I havent' looked at any of their records that closely, but to me they all belong in the Hall of Pretty Damn Good. Consider that they went to the SBs mostly during an era of NFC SB dominance. Most of the time they went ot the SB, it was as the best team in a relatively weak conference, and not as literally the second best team in the league. 53% win percentage impresses me not at all, though an analysis of how many yeasr were spent turning around a program needs to be taken into consideration. 53% wins with 2 teams is different than with 4 teams, if he took 4 teams from bad/mediocre/average and made them significantly better. But when you talk great NFL coaches, I don't really put any of those guys on my list.
Posts: 43,125

08-19-2009, 09:11 AM	#20
Chief Chief Veteran Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Kansas City MO Casino cash: $10004900	Ya remember that time when Dan Reeves took the 1999 Atlanta Falcons to Miami to face the Denver Broncos in the Super Bowl?Do ya remember that?Ya remember when Eugene Robinson of that same Atlanta team got the Bart Starr Award by the religious group Athletes In Action for being a person who displays high morale character? Do ya remember that? Do ya remember when later that same day that he got that award and he offered a prostitute $40 for oral sex but the prostitute wasn't a prostitute but instead was a female police officer dressed as a prostitute? Ya remember that? Well, I remember something that you don't remember at all: That same police officer was really Dan Reeves dressed in drag and trolling... ...which explains his delay in entering the HOF...
Posts: 3,072

08-19-2009, 09:15 AM	#22
Amnorix In BB I trust Join Date: May 2003 Location: Boston, Mass. Casino cash: $10029808	To humor anyone who cares, I took a look at Reeves. The answer is no. http://www.pro-football-reference.co...es/ReevDa0.htm Denver was up and down with him. Some great years, some mediocre years, even though he had some pretty damn great talent htere. Took an aging but very good Giants team and took them in the wrong direction. Had one really good year out of SEVEN with the Falcons. 53% win total overall. No SB wins, no special contribution to the game (unlike Levy and the no huddle) that I can think of. I just don't see it.
Posts: 43,125

08-19-2009, 09:20 AM	#25
Amnorix In BB I trust Join Date: May 2003 Location: Boston, Mass. Casino cash: $10029808	Reviewed Schottenheimer's record. It's much more of what I expect to see from a HOF coach (compare to Reeves). Takes a Browns team and improves it. Takes a Chiefs team and improves it. Ignore one aberrant year with that idiot Snyder in Washington. Takes a Chargers team and improves it. 61% win percentage. The only knock, obviously, is no SB appearances/wins.
Posts: 43,125

08-19-2009, 09:20 AM	#26
DaKCMan AP Beloved & Awesome CP Celebrity Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Florida Casino cash: $5584952	Another question: Why do so many consider Tim Brown a 1st ballot HOF but not Cris Carter? Tim Brown: 16 seasons 255 games 1094 receptions 14934 yards 100 TDs 13.7 yards/reception 4555 return yards 3 return TDs 9 Pro Bowls (6 consecutive) 0x All-Pro Cris Carter: 16 seasons 234 games 1101 receptions 13899 yards 130 TDs 12.6 yards/reception 8 straight Pro-Bowls 2x All-Pro __________________
Posts: 35,714